I have issues ordering food while I am by myself. It makes me uncomfortable and I feel like everyone is staring at me and judging my order which is ridiculous because I know in reality only 3/4 of the people around me are staring and judging. But that's beside the point.About a week ago I conjured up the courage to order a sandwich while I was all alone, thus able to eavesdrop on the conversations going on around me. My ears perked up to a vaguely familiar yet completely unplaceable Southern twang. I looked up and right in front of me in line was last season's America's Next Top Model winner Danielle and ANTM reject Mollie Sue. They both looked sightly prettier and taller than average girls and were both dressed pretty low key. I, of course, recognized them immediately because back when I had TV I was obsessed with ANTM because I can't get enough of the photo shoots (I want to be a photographer).
Danielle was (still) talking about how her agency wants her to fill the gap in her two front teeth. She was literally having the same conversation she always had on the show...it was kind of eerie. My god woman, you are incredibly photogenic and the gap suits you beautifully! Embrace the gap or get veneers already!
But the reason I even bothered to write about this is because as I followed Danielle and Molly Sue back from the sandwich line to the cash register line, Mollie Sue starting to complain that she was gaining weight. To demonstrate her weight gain she lifted her arm and started swatting at an invisible fatty under arm deposit that clearly did not exist. She was like, "Look at this! Can you believe it? I mean, I am older now, but why is this happening to me?".
I really wanted to punch her. I know it's normal and that everyone has issues with parts of their bodies but it was just really hard to hear the "I have such fat arms" complaint coming from a wannabe/almost/maybe model who has no visible fat while I stood behind her sweltering in a sweater over my tank top because I have actual fat hanging from my arms which exists in reality. As I have stated before, I have loads of thin friends who pull the whole, "I am sooooo fat" thing all the time but as I recently found out it's much more annoying and irksome to hear it from a model who you don't know and can't call on her bullshit and tell her to shut up.
Blah blah blah...skinny girls feel pain too. Modeling is a tough business...yadda yadda yadda. But still, for all the models out there who I know look to me for guidance, for the love of my sanity, please stop calling yourselves fat ... we don't pay you to talk. We pay you starve yourselves and give the public a photo-shopped image of an ideal of beauty that can never ever be attained. Even by you apparently.
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58 comments:
I like the photoshoots too! I was really glad Danielle won. I hate when skinny girls complain that they are fat. Where did you see them?
"We pay you starve yourselves and give the public a photo-shopped image of an ideal of beauty that can never ever be attained. Even by you apparently."
That is so sick and twisted and true.
I'm afraid if I'd been standing behind the vapid, self-obsessed twit I'd have had to have said something, not that it would have registered since I am a) Fat, b) Over 40, ergo c) Invisible. But it would have madeat least one of us feel better.
Buffpuff, normally, I love your posts, but ... I'm going to call you on this one. Our Girl overheard [eavesdropped, and I would have, too] a private conversation between two women who were friends, and who were/are on an even footing with each other. Whether Our Girl could see the "non-existent underarm flab" or not is irrelevant, in this instance; it's really not the same as when her thin body dysmorphic friend goes on and on about her weight. What Molly Sue was discussing with Danielle was a matter of economic survival, and it was from one professional to another. Unless, of course, you're slamming on Danielle for being the vapid, self-obsessed twit. In which case, I still call: discussion between two professionals on matters that, for them, can affect whether or not they get work. See "We pay you to starve yourselves." Our Girls have no trouble discussing the parameters of their work lives; I don't see why the same doesn't apply to Danielle and Molly Sue. They weren't giving public lectures; they were having a private discussion. And as for being self-obsessed ... well, all of us here are, too, to a certain extent. We all discuss how we see and feel about ourselves. Some are happier about themselves than others; I don't really understand why it's okay for us to discuss the things that concern us, and not for them to discuss the things that concern them.
And what with photoshopping and all, I'd say they have a lot to be concerned about. How long is it going to be until agencies decide that it's just easier to work with computer-generated images of women, and forego actual models entirely? Once you have photos of the clothing, you can 'shop until you drop to get the image you want; the real woman is starting to matter less and less. Eventually it'll be cheaper just to show the clothes on constructs.
Welcome to The Sims Modeling Agency!
Dolley, breathe.....
BuffPuff wasnt' saying that Fatty shoudl have said something, she said that in the same instance she might not have been able to control her tongue. Big difference. Haven't you ever blurted out something that was really none of your concern?
As for its being a "private conversation," I agree with you up to a point, but they were having it in public, while standing in a queue. No court in the world would consider that a "reasonable expectation of privacy."
Hey Mikey - I got a vowel!!! jubwvzwb
Wow, there I was just being my normal facetious little self, and you threw me a curveball, Dolley! But I ain't no quittin' yellerbelly, so here's my response:-
Firstly you have to realise that, being a Brit and watching very little reality TV, I wouldn't have had the slightest notion of who these wretched girls were, never mind what they did for a living. Therefore if one chanced to raise a taut, twig-like arm and bewail her imaginary bingo-wings in my vicinity, I'm afraid I would instantly write her off as a self-obsessed ninny.
Secondly, listening to regular women beating themselves up for being "fat" for no other reason than they possess the requisite curves to distinguish them from men, actively causes me pain – both as a woman and a fat person. Indeed, it often seems to me that if one is not actually on a diet or committed to a strenuous exercise regime, then bellyaching about one's real or imaginary physical shortcomings is the next best thing and, as such, a social obligation. The fact that models do it too, while being ironic, comes as no surprise.
Perhaps, in the context of the above statements, you can understand why Lindsey/Emily wanted to punch Molly Sue and why I might be tempted to pass a caustic remark. Sure it would be rude, given that they were having a private conversation – but so is whingeing about your weight when you're of model proportions and happen to be standing right next to a fat person in a queue. (Plus one of the few privileges of getting older is you can start muttering to yourselfself in public with impunity).
I don't mind admitting I have a hard time being magnanimous toward women whose images are used to diminish the self-esteem of pretty much any woman who doesn't resemble them. Only yesterday I was reading something about Project Runway, (another show we don't have in the UK), where someone criticised the use of a "zaftig" size 4 model. To be honest, I can't imagine why any woman with a brain or a social conscience would want to make a living in such a worthgless, shallow industry – at least not on the model's side of the camera.
I was posting at the crack of dawn (or, possibly, the crank of dawn), so I don't think I made myself clear; I was distressed, not so much by the McGee impulse to say something, or even, BuffPuff, by your impulse to say something, had you been there; what distressed me was your referring to the girl talking as a "vapid, self-obsessed twit;" my comments should be taken in context of my reaction to what, for Buffpuff, might just have been a passing remark. I don't see how Mollie Sue's concern with the size of her arm differs from Danielle's gap between her teeth (which apparently got a fair amount of air time on the show on which she's appeared). Aside from the fact that, compared to the rest of us, the two girls come a lot closer to approximating the current standards of "beautiful," it sounds like a conversation that any two friends might have. It certainly sounds like a conversation I might have at lunch with my best friend, with her grousing about that very self-same body part, and me grousing that it's not fair to have lines and still be breaking out. The difference for those two is that it's professional, and not just personal.
And Kate, you betcha; of course I've blurted out things that were none of my concern. Where to find something, animal care, unasked medical advice ... I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I just ... I usually try not to make other people feel worse, on purpose. If I blurted anything, it would probably be that she had less to worry about than she thought.
I don't watch reality TV myself, and I'm betting that I'd still be able to guess that they were models; models tend to be much, much taller, and much, much thinner than average. I know we toss those adjectives around a lot, but they look different enough that some folks might find them a little odd-looking, close up. And I was actually empathising with the models for beating themselves up the same way we do - as opposed to castigating them for it. Believe me, I understand the impulse to punch somebody out - I had two workmates who were standing at the corner of MY desk, thanks very much, chatting about how they bought their clothes in the children's department. I wanted to snap them like twigs. Just because my desk was positioned between theirs didn't make it a good place for that particular conversation. I just seethed, because if I'd said anything, I would have said Too Much.
[However, when one of them was on the elevator with me the other day and asked me if I was still working out, I said sweetly, "Of course!" and, blandly ignoring her leathery biceps, added, "Are you??"]
And as for "why any woman with a brain or a social conscience would want to make a living in such a worthgless, shallow industry – at least not on the model's side of the camera" - I know the answer to that one. Because it buys the cat food, and pays the rent, and maybe means that you have actual money to pay for your education, once the modeling career is over with. Modeling is a short-lived career, usually, but it pays much better than file clerking, or waitressing, or secretarial work does; it's generally not a lifetime commitment. [Cue the music to segue into bitter animadversions on the value society accords women who appear to be older than twenty-five - but that's another rant.] [And as it happens, I'm forty-nine.]
I love fashion shows, including Project Runway and America's Next Top Model, simply because I was a fashion student once upon a time. I love every aspect of the industry, except the sticks.
Sticks meaning, of course, the models. I think every girl in our class asked about models, and our plus sized - BUT FABULOUS! - instructor explained, as much as I hate to admit it, in a very clearly understandable way, these girls are the clothes hangers. They are there only to show the clothes off.
I feel better about it knowing that I do not look like a clothes hangar and will never be mistaken for one. I have curves, a personality, and style, all of my own. No one picked it out for me.
Laura, your post reminded me in a line from the movie "In & Out." At one point, Matt Dillon's character says to his girlfriend something to the effect of "do me a favor and eat something, will ya? You look like a swizzle stick."
That's the same character who is horrified that the teacher he always had a crush on has lost weight. His response when he first sees her is "what did you do to yourself?" It's made plain that he thought she was gorgeous before she lost the weight and not so much afterwards. I love that movie.
My boyfriend gets very upset when I lose weight. One time I lost a lot of weight due to severe stress. I ended up developing an intestinal disorder that was very painful, and still is. He begged me to gain at least 10 pounds. I couldn't understand him, because I thought that he would be more attracted to me as a thin woman. He prefers me with a little meat on my bones.
I have now gained most of my weight back and he loves it. He thinks Im perfect, even though there is a tiny voice inside me that says "I wish I was thin again". Sigh. The grass is always greener, I suppose.
As for saying something to the girls, it is possible that someone told this girl that she is gaining weight, and it upset her. We don't really know what was said to her. I feel badly for these young women who are pressured to be rail skinny, and if they gain a couple of ounces, they are considered "fat".
I prefer just living my life, and if I have curves, that's okay
I honestly would have more trouble with thin friends saying they were fat when they weren't than some celebrities. Basically because I don't give a rat's patoot about celebs, and in fact have quite a bit of disdain for them.
But anyone who is thin yet claims they are fat and whines about it is beyond my understanding. At work one day a lady who is underweight, I'd estimate about 110 pounds at 5'6", complained about weighing so much. I called her on it and she got MAD, went on a total entitlement rant and said, "My weight bothers me as much as it bothers you!"
Lady, I weigh 200 pounds more than you do. Don't give me that crap. Don't you dare call yourself fat because you're feeling sorry for yourself and it's the worst insult you can come up with during your little pity party. Don't co-opt the idea of being fat without ever understanding what being fat entails -- if you haven't struggled with diets, cried trying to buy clothes, avoided swimming pools, been discriminated against, or read articles about how disgusting you are then you do NOT get to identify as "fat".
It's ridiculous. It's just petty, selfish whining, and it doesn't matter if it's for their job or not.
Standing O, Stacia!
What Dolley said.
I have gorgeous thin friends who whine about their nonexistent flab, but it tends to take my seethe-factor down when I remember that such "whinging" probably does feel like a social obligation to them -- and, as such, they frequently don't even realize how rude it is when they do it around someone who is outside the bounds of what's termed "socially acceptable" weight in our culture (and, as we've determined, even that fluctuates from coast to coast and continent to continent. I'm "fat" here in NYC and "skinny" when I visit relatives down South. Thank God my weight is finally somewhat stable because the attendant social madness does nothing for my emotional stability.)
Additionally, modeling is one of the few professions in this culture that pays better for men than for women (not to mention how it outpaces the jobs Dolley mentioned) precisely because beauty in women is overvalued in our society to the extent that it overshadows all other attributes. And all women have to live and deal with that, body size notwithstanding.
I think those two issues are related, I'm just not sure I can articulate quite how.
But I do know that there's a very articulate discussion of it going on at http://everywomanhasaneatingdisorder.blogspot.com/
Not to take anything away from what Stacia said, but I think this is one of those situations where the fat women and the skinny women all need to recognize we're in it together, to try to beat down the forces that are forcing us in it in the first place.
(Now the women - and men - who not only hew to the standards, but look down on and devalue those who don't? They are, IMHO, prime targets for said beat-down. A subtle, but critical distinction.)
Hmmm. I have the distinct feeling this one just might run and run...
Dolley, you're obviously a far more charitable person than I am. I'm afraid there are those infinitely more deserving of my empathy than a grieving size 2 reeling from the cruel blow that it's a size 0 world. And, to be honest, if Danielle did, as alleged, spend vast chunks of screen time agonising over the gap in her front teeth - yet still managed to win the sodding competition, then frankly, the pair of them deserve a good slap.
For pity's sake, women like this are the overpaid tools by which the majority of women are forced to measure themselves and find themselves lacking, every single day. They are a significant contributing factor as to why most of us waste our entire lunchbreaks bleating about our physical shortcomings. The day the likes of Molly Sue and Danielle actually do anything to make the world a happier or place is the day I might respect their pressing professional concerns but, until then, it's best not to confuse me with someone who gives a shit.
I just want to put it out there...probably most wouldn't agree with me, but Im wondering if anyone here has been thin and been hated on for that? I have been on both ends of the scale.
When I lost all my weight, no woman wanted to be my friend.
My best friend dumped me.
Creepy and disgusting guys would leer at me on the street and embarrass me with sexual remarks.
I even had a woman threaten to punch me in the face because I spent a little too long in the bathroom.
She hated my guts.
She was a very fat woman, and I know she felt contempt for me because I was very skinny. It was scary and hurtful at the same time. Im not saying this for sympathy.
I have also been hated on for being fat. It goes both ways.
I just want to post the question if hating on someone because they're thin is the same as hating on someone because they're fat?
Im not saying its right to sit there in public and pretend to be fat when you're not, but I never did any such thing.
When I walked down the street I would hear snide comments and criticisms from other women. I could hear them talking about me behind my back. I even had people tell me I looked like a cancer victim. I had one person tell me that I would never make friends because others would be jealous of my looks and figure. Did it hurt? Your damn right it hurt.
I think its wrong both ways. Do skinny people get hated on? Your damn right! It is just as hurtful and isolating.
Just because a skinny person is the "ideal" it doesn't make life any easier sometimes. I have regained much of my weight, so I guess Im not perceived as a threat anymore.
Anonymous 2:13, I think you have something there. I had a friend in high school who had guys whistling at her all the time, asking her out. Heck, she even got a job at a local health club, as an instructor no less, simply due to her looks. She admitted as much since she had no physical ed. training for the job and just made it through this particular aerobics class each day. Anyhow, all she did was complain about how fat she was and always pointed out the imaginary fatrolls to myself and her other friends. We all got sick of hearing her complain. But every so often I wondered if she did it to "fit in" with the rest of us regular girls. Sort of like, "I've got problems just like you..."
Skinny, fat, whatever. It sucks to be hated just for BEING.
I am very dedicated to size acceptance now. I even wrote an article on size discrimination (against plus people) that was published in a local paper. I want people to understand that no matter what our size, we deserve to live on this planet and be happy and enjoy our lives.
I hope that I reached out to some people that are fat haters. I don't tolerate that at all. I think it's disgusting to hate anyone based on dress size.
Some people deserve to be hated
Anonymous said...
Some people deserve to be hated
Is that a "Tuckerism?"
Anonymous said...
Some people deserve to be hated
True, but they deserve it for their actions, not their physiques.
On the whole hating for being thin thing... I went a bit weird round food once (I compulsively restricted eating to five hundred calories a day). And people did "hate" on me- told me I looked ill, and that I should eat more. But, if I'm completely honest, I loved it. The fact is that being hated on for being thin is a thousand times better than being hated on for being fat, and I've been both. With being thin, there's respect and fear and empathy, which there is with being fat as well, but fat people get disdain thrown into the mix. And I got compliments as well, when I was a rail, which is the scary thing. I always wanted to be 10lbs lighter. People say I'm medium now, and I whine so much internally about my body. I am ashamed of it, but I don't want to be the prissy woman always whining about her body, so it just tends to come out when I'm drunk and on internet rants. I usually want to slap the whiners- but secretly I am one of them.
On the other hand, your website is a help- its a real sisterhood, no backstabbing. Its down to earth and real and fantastic, and it doesn't make me stop whining but it does make me see that being fat isn't as terrible as its painted, especially if you can have fat friends (who are infrequently far better company and more amusing than thin ones- look at the pro ana sites- noone ever laughs at themselves or anything else, its a huge pity party.) One of my friends, who is bigger than normal but definitely not overweight, gave me the best advice after I'd ranted on when I got drunk one night. After telling me she'd always thought I was fine and the rest of it, she asked me why I cared so much. And I couldn't really think of a good enough answer to give her, because she is pretty and popular and clever and talented with what appears to be high self esteem despite comments from family etc on her figure. I've never seen her do that despising sideways glance in a mirror so many girls give themselves. Any hints on one day reaching that beacon of self esteem greatly appreciated.
"Super" models are overrated for the most part, obviously there's one or two exceptions.
For me at least, I could walk by one on the street and my only thought would be "she's pretty skinny and tall, I wonder where I can get a beer?"
Give me Monica Bellucci any day
Woah...buffpuff, are you aware that you come off as incredibly old and bitter?
if you're really advocating size acceptance, and that being thin is just the same as being fat, why do you always come off as SO jealous and angry?
every woman complains about being fat. honestly, it seems like it's just a part of being a woman today. you called this woman some pretty harsh names by placing judgments you'd hate to have applied to yourself. how do you know she had seen the fat girl in line behind her? how do you know how intelligent she is? how do you know is she has body dysmorphic disorder and really thinks she's fat? how do you know if in that industry, she really has been referred to as fat? how do you know if she is in modeling because she really needs the money? do you ask why secretaries "choose" that career and what they are doing to help the world? are you really so delusional that you think every woman is really in the economic decision to choose which career they would like to be in, rather than which would give them the most money given their assets?
you really don't know anything about this girl except that she was talking about her line of work (which happens to involve a LOT of talk about her body) and she was remarking to her friend that she thinks she's fat just like every other woman. that you reacted with so much vitriol shows why fat acceptance people will never be taken seriously, because they always seem really jealous of thinner people.
Don't think that we don't judge. Last night, I had dinner with a friend at Cosi and I watched every morsel of food she put in her mouth. It SUCKED. I used to not care about this shit!!!
Anonymous, allow me to put my abundant spleen into context. You know that old chestnut, “before you can love another, you must first love yourself”? Take that and apply it to size acceptance; big time. We live in an age which actively encourages intense dissatisfaction with our appearance through a wide variety of largely inescapable media. Indeed, you yourself say complaining about fat “seems like it’s just part of being a woman today”. Since many industries prosper as a result of this sorry state of affairs, they deliberately perpetuate it. Littlem is absolutely right when she says fat and thin suffer the consequences alike – but Stacia is also right when she points out the substantial differences between fearing fat and living it.
Self-acceptance, which is what I advocate first and foremost, is not for the faint-hearted. I believe the constant pressure to live up to impossible, ever-shrinking role models, (who, despite frequently achieving their slender figures as a result of drug abuse or eating disorders, are sold to us as models of health as well as beauty), crushes our spirits and diverts our creative energy. But instead of opposing this obscenely lucrative insanity, most women continue to suck it up unquestioningly, taking out their resentment and projecting their self-hatred onto each other instead, spurred on all the way by a host of trashy magazines encouraging us all to alternatively pass judgment on celebrity scragginess and cellulite. We have become, to put no fine a point on it, a vast army of insecure bitches. (And, yes, that includes me. I might see this brainwashing for what it is and fight it tooth and nail, but I too spent the first half of my life equating fat with ugly and inferior). Add the increasing moralization of fat and media lather about the Obesity! Crisis! to the mix and frankly, things aren’t looking hopeful for self – or size – acceptance any time soon.
The fashion industry is a whole other matter. Unlike those who make money out of sucking out our adipose tissue, tying our entrails in knots, screwing with our metabolisms, filling us with noxious chemicals and making us assume bizarre contortions with large inflatable balls, it could actually profit just as nicely without making us all hate ourselves. Yet it routinely short-changes fat women, refuses to acknowledge our spending power to its own and our detriment, while hanging on for grim death to its oppressive “aspirational” images – as typified by Molly effing Sue and her gap-toothed sidekick.
So, yes, Anonymous, I am angry, not least because I believe in the power of yummy, to-die-for clothes to raise a fat woman’s self-esteem and positively affect the way she is viewed by society – and because I also believe the visible dearth of plus-sized clothing and plus sized aspirational images send further subconscious messages to fashion-loving women of all sizes that once you hit double-digits you’re persona non grata and might as well be dead. I’m positively hopping, Anonymous, that pro-ana sites and polyester muumuus even exist and that people snipe at my friend Harriet because they view her naturally tiny figure as some kind of reproach – and I’m heartsick that we live in an era so sublimely fucked up that someone asking for self-esteem pointers on this very thread has revealed that being in the grip of an eating disorder and being told she looked sick made her feel on top of the bloody world! So, if you want to put my total disinterest in Molly Sue’s phantom flab, socio-economic situation, IQ or choice of career she may well be too thin-skinned to hack down to jealousy then so be it. I prefer to think of it as compassion fatigue.
buffpuff, you keep referring to all the industries making all this money by promoting weight loss, but actually they are small potatoes compared with how much "big food" makes.
Yum brands alone makes close to $10 billion a year on fast food. That's just one company. If anything, overindulgence is pushed at us a lot harder than weight loss. Look at how many ads we see for burgers topped with roast beef or fried chicken bowls, compared to Weight Watchers or Nutrisystem. Obesity makes corporations a lot more money these days than weight loss does.
Your ranting against those thinner than you comes off as juvenile and petty. You seem to think that anyone who weighs less than you is anorexic. Amazingly enough, there's a middle range that many of us are quite happy to be in. And these are models you're talking about, who HAVE to stay a certain size to make money - if you eavesdropped on a couple of jockeys standing in front of you and one was complaining about somehow having gained 2 pounds over the last 6 months, would you throw a hissy fit then too?
But what you said had no "disinterest" in it. You said something downright cruel about someone you really have no idea about. You're making so many assumptions about her when you don't know if she even saw the person standing behind her. You don't have to be compassionate - I'm sure she wouldn't even want your compassion - but if the same standards were applied to you (such as assumptions about why you were fat, etc) wouldn't you object?
You are a hypocrite. You say you hate when people assume why you and other fat people are overweight, but then you still haven't answered one of the questions I posed to you about the model that would lead you to make such a nasty comment about her. I really don't think that every thin woman who complains to her friend (and yes, it was a PRIVATE conversation) is necessarily stupid. You shouldn't think so either, after just citing all the reasons why women are so insecure. For you to seem so hateful against this one thin woman in particular for doing something that to me suggests insecurity, but not stupidity, leads me to believe there's something more to your "fat acceptance" than just what you claim.
A private conversation in a public setting is not a private conversation.
anon at 3:32pm: "A private conversation in a public setting is not a private conversation."
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? You can't be that retarded. Read your sentence: a private conversation is not a private conversation?
Anonymi,
You seem to think that anyone who weighs less than you is anorexic.
Er, no. I think the girls who belong to pro-ana communities most probably are, and that acting on a compulsion to embark on a 500 calorie a day diet qualifies as having an eating disorder. I also mentioned certain role models touted as the epitome of health and beauty having achieved the figures we have been socially conditioned to envy as a result of disordered eating. Please feel free to disagree with me on any of these statements but kindly don't put words into my mouth.
Amazingly enough, there's a middle range that many of us are quite happy to be in
I'm delighted to hear it, considering just how many women in that middle range are far from happy in their skin as a result of the aforementioned cultural brainwashing. (Did you actually read any of that part at all? Just, you know, wondering).
You said something downright cruel about someone you really have no idea about.
Yes, in a throwaway response to our webmistress, who'd said that she wanted to punch the woman in question and wished she'd been in a position to call her on her bullshit and tell her to shut up, lest you forget. What can I say? As a fellow fat person, I was feeling her pain. Since then I have been relentlessly guilt-tripped for not feeling the model's, who now, incidentally, appears to have aquired near-martyr status in the light of my scathing character assassination – by folk who, to the best of my knowledge, don't know anything more about her than I do.
It's quite possible she didn't notice Lindsey/Emily standing next to her. It's also equally possible that she did. I don't think that every thin person who complains to her friend about her weight is stupid and believe I made that quite clear in my last post, However, you may take it from me that if you are the thing those women are fretting about becoming, it is very, very annoying to have to listen to it – not least when it's groundless.
Sheesh. Enough already.
Oh yeah. I love it when girls complain about being fat in my presence when they are clearly not as fat as I am.
"I have actual fat hanging from my arms which exists in reality" - LOL! Hilarious.
Don't be retarded. You know the point that was being made -- if you want a conversation to truly be private, don't have it public.
Buffpuff, I'm not trying to make the girl a martyr or saying that she's a good person. I simply don't know, nor do you. I'm saying that making assumptions about thin people to insult them while getting upset when people make assumptions about fat people makes you a hypocrite.
That she is doing something that MOST women do while in a line of work that demands she be very involved with how she looks should actually make her actions a bit more understandable. She has to worry about her body a lot because that is how she feeds herself. Other thin/fat/medium women who complain about their bodies are only doing so out of vanity/insecurity/depression whatever and not because they have to think about these things to get their next rent.
I simply don't see how her actions entitle you to insult her intelligence and character any more than seeing a fat person eating a hamburger entitles someone to assume they are a glutton and insult that person's character.
By the way, I also really hope you give a lot of thought about why women "choose" to be in particular careers. That's a little like saying people "choose" to be fat. Not all women who are models desire to become one from an early age. Some realize they are tall, thin, and could possibly make a lot more money than by doing something else.
Wow. Listen, from one anon. to another--you're really going in circles, darling. Face it, you misinterpretted Buffpuff. She's not out to wreak thinocide. She only feels what many people feel, whether obese, underweight or average. She has a right to be upset when society has our (metaphorical) balls in a vice. No one wins the weight war but the economy. People have, and will, buy anything to be perfect.
Anon 10:30 said:
"I simply don't see how her actions entitle you to insult her intelligence and character any more than seeing a fat person eating a hamburger entitles someone to assume they are a glutton and insult that person's character."
IMO, this is an important point, however little I think of the judgmental tone you take as you make it, 10:30.
"Other thin/fat/medium women who complain about their bodies are only doing so out of vanity/insecurity/depression whatever and not because they have to think about these things to get their next rent."
Now THIS needs some breaking down. I can tell you from personal experience as a medium-to-fat person (depending, again, on my workout habits, as well as on geography, which latter point is part of the issue I'm trying to address here) that a lot of women (and men) DO have to think about these things to get their next rent.
If your boss witnesses that you've put on weight, and extrapolates from just that that you're a weak, sloppy person who doesn't have the discpline to perform your job well (and this isn't just personal experience/observation -- we've heard of studies like that; people in positions of power making assumptions based on candidates' appearance as to the candidates' ability/willingness to "institute self-corrective behavior" - blech) -- then you have a societal problem that's NOT just a model's problem.
It's a problem of prejudice, when people in positions of power (other people too) jump to conclusions about people whose lives they are in positions to influence, and those unexamined - and unquestioned - conclusions create atmospheres where the people about whom the assumptions are made can't live a decent, dignified life, and sometimes can't even find a job.
The bottles thrown out of cars at you as you attempt to exercise in public. Someone you don't even know taking something out of your grocery cart and telling you "you don't need that." (Anyone who tries that with me might get slapped, so don't think about it.) The ridicule. The harrassment.
That happens MUCH MUCH MORE OFTEN to fat as opposed to thin people, even though the "worship of thin" is so ingrained in our society that even thin women frequently "feel fat".
(With your really enlightened friends, you can disassociate "fat" -- and "thin", for that matter -- from "bad", but that's another discussion altogether.)
And, Anon 10:30, although I would never presume to speak for Buff, THAT -- the harrassment that happens much much more often to fat as opposed to thin people in this culture -- is one of the points I think she's making that I think you're missing (or perhaps just ignoring).
10:30, you make some important points, so don't be so harsh and judgmental yourself. Have some carbs; it will chill you out. It doesn't even have to be, like, Oreos; have, like, a mango.
If anything, Buffpuff needs to chill out. She comes off as histrionic and overemotional ALL the time.
1) This, from someone else's blog on that foul "Details/Pigs" article, says what I was trying to say, but more concisely:
"It’s all well and good to say “well, just tune out” except that that majority of people aren’t tuning out, and this shit is still out there influencing future generations of men and women. And it’s about a lot more than whether women think they’re pretty enough or can eat an ice cream cone without guilt. Beauty standards can impact whether a woman is hired for a job, or gets a promotion, or even gets into her choice of college. You can personally tune it out, but if the guy on the other side of the hiring desk hasn’t, it’s still going to affect you."
Anon 1:41, YOU need to chill out. You come off as tactless, judgmental and completely lacking empathy almost ALL the time.
Also, Buff (and others of course -- I'm ignoring Anon 10:30/1:41 until s/he gets his/her head out of his/her butt), this may interest you:
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/16/i-think-i-just-prevented-an-eating-disorder/
Blimey, all hell seems to have broken loose since I first started writing this but, what the hey, I'll post it anyway...
10.30 a.m Anonymous, what part of "throwaway comment" can you not get to grips with? I know it wasn't a kind thing to say, nor was it especially rational or mature and furthermore neither of us will ever know whether it was justified or not, (please refer to my "I'm a bitch too" revelation two posts back). But while I might have chosen my words more thoughtfully, I'm afraid her behaviour still rankles, regardless of what made her decide to try her luck as a model.
Bitter? Well, I live fat so, regretably, yes. Hypocritical? Not so much. If I was trolling model-wannabe websites posting blanket insults willy-nilly in the way the Tucker Max posse conducted themselves here; and if "stupid" was the sole insult routinely levelled at fat people by the world and his wife – you might possibly have a point. Ditto if I had, as you suggested, made some crackpot assertion that anyone thinner than me is anorexic. But that is unequivocally not the case. (By the way, "wreak thinocide" gave me the best laugh I've had all day. Cheers, 1.18 p.m. Anon)
Strange to relate, as an adult woman, I am perfectly aware we do not all start out with the same soci-economic advantages and that we are discriminated against for all manner of reasons in the workplace - one of which, as Littlem attests, is fat; which is to say real fat. As an aside, and given your own high moral tone, it would be interesting to see if you defended porn with the same fervour you defend the modeling industry. Many of the same points apply - not least the ability to make shedloads of money trading on your looks – but many women do exercise a choice not to enter the field, viewing it as demeaning, immoral or idealogically unsound. Just as some view porn as a contributory factor to numerous societal evils, I view the tireless flogging of one extreme and atypical body-type to impressionable young women to be damaging to society as a whole.
Littlem, I'm checking out the feministe thread even as we speak.
And damn, now I want a mango.
MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm Mangoes.
Not only delicious, but they also contain a natural anti-depressant.
I would *possiblt* have a point if you did that? (btw the anon who said you think all thin people are anorexic is not me.) No, I don't think you have to do any of that to be a hypocrite. You only have to make assumptions to insult thin women and then get angry when people make assumptions to insult fat people.
And that's basically your entire function here. To get angry when people make assumptions to insult fat people, and then to rebut their assumptions.
You might personally compare the modeling industry to the pornography industry, but most people don't think that way, so you can't expect most people to have the same amount of venom directed towards models as you do. Besides, the models don't make the decisions as to what an agency or ad campaign is looking for; they get rejected if they don't meet the standards, and another model who does is hired. You should be angry at the advertising agencies and the creative directors of ad campaigns, not at models.
And I would actually defend the porn industry. The few qualms I have with porn involve their safe sex practices. Apart from that, pornography is freedom of expression, as is modeling.
And I still don't see anything SO terrible about this particular model's behavior b.c. it is something every woman does all the time, and it's not a big deal at all. You are just mad because you're old and bitter.
Aon 9:33, I'm sure you're not even talking to me, but I believe you've taken aim at one of my blog-friends, so ...
"To get angry when people make assumptions to insult fat people, and then to rebut their assumptions."
Your lack of logic - not to mention lack of skill at sentence construction - is staggering.
"You might personally compare the modeling industry to the pornography industry, but most people don't think that way"
You know this, I'm sure, because you've surveyed them all.
"And I still don't see anything SO terrible about this particular model's behavior"
Of course not, since you're more interested in yapping about your own opinion than having a real discussion -- on topic, even -- with others here. (A hint: next time, try to READ the comments.)
"b.c. it is something every woman does all the time"
Again, such thorough surveillance skills, getting the opinion of EVERY woman at ALL times. Do try, on the next blog on which you alight, not to demonstrate your lack of critical thinking and logical skills twice in the same post, OK, hon?
"and it's not a big deal at all"
Again (*yawn*) only your opinion -- clearly you don't get the point, because you're so far off topic you might as well be on the other side of the galaxy.
"You are just mad because you're old and bitter."
You are just mad because you're immature and dull-witted.
Too bad you did not heed Kate's advice about mangoes containing natural anti-depressants before writing your squeaky mini-rant of a post. They are quite reasonably priced in the summer.
Go away now. And have a nice day.
That is all.
No, I haven't surveyed everyone in the world obviously, but I think I can safely say most people's attitudes towards the modeling and pornography industry aren't quite the same. The crusades against the porn industry are based more on moral standards, while people against models say things more along the lines of "this isn't realistic" rather than "this is morally wrong."
You criticize my lack of critical thinking at the same time you fail to understand hyperbole. If a person says that every woman does something, they do not literally mean that every woman does that. I don't even know why you're acting like you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Looking at the comments to this post and remembering my own personal experience, I can say that a wide variety of women of different shapes and backgrounds criticize their real or imaginary fat in public or private. Most of these women are not in the position to need to use their bodies to make money and none that I know have faced size discrimination. Yet Buffpuff insults this woman quite harshly based on her actions while knowing that this woman, as a model, has to be a little more self-obsessed than the average woman.
I have read her rebuttals very carefully and I STILL think buffpuff is a hypocrite. As you said, it's just my opinion. But she does seem very unforgiving and angry towards people who have body issues and happen to be thin.
By the way, are you fat, littlem?
Well, I would have been irritated by the models' behaviour if I'd been standing behind them. I wouldn't have said anything, but I wouldn't have been able to help feeling irritated.
Right enough, models have to stay thinner than everyone else. But that doesn't make this behaviour un-irritating. It's possible to love someone and be irritated by this behaviour in them: I know, because I live with it.
My husband has depression, part of which manifests itself in a medium-serious body image problem. Although he eats healthily, he continually complains that he's getting fat, although his 28-inch-waist jeans are baggy on him and his ribs show. I see him pinching non-existent fat rolls and I want to scream, because it makes me feel like such a huge squishy blob by comparison.
Although I am overweight and am gradually losing via diet and exercise, I know I'm not a huge squishy blob, and I know my husband doesn't think so either. He didn't think so when I was heavier. He doesn't mean to be thoughtless. But his problems make it hard for him to take in how hurtful his behaviour is.
I would be amazed if it's possible to have a career as a model and not develop some kind of body dysmorphia. Which is a shame, and it's a pity that the industry is set up like that. But that doesn't mean that this kind of behaviour isn't self-centred and annoying. Just explicably self-centred and annoying.
You guys are all a bunch of sillies to fight with each other here... stop trying to out do each other. It's boring...
Had I been standing in line behind 2 skinny girls, and one turned to the other and said, "I'm getting fat!" I think I would have burst out laughing, and bedamned the stares that came my way.
These girls are models. They are paid to be the ideal of the designer choosing them. They are the clothes hangers for the designer clothes. For all professional purposes, that's it. That's all. They are paid to show off the clothes in the best way. They are the hanger on which the clothes are shown. Walking hangars. This is their job! If they don't like it, or feel too pressured to stay a certain size, while I'm sure they have bills to pay, they still have the choice to choose a different job. So they are paid to be the size they are.
This is not to say that they are not people, with thoughts, feelings, and personalities. That being said, it does not necessarily mean that I would not like them if I met them and had a real conversation. At the same time, I might very much dislike them for their actual character. Nothing wrong with that either. It is simply a matter of who you get along with and who you do not.
I have fat friends, and I have thin friends. I am on the chubbier side of that divide. And while I never hate my friends for being the size they are, I hate it when they bitch about it. Whether fat or thin, don't complain about your size. You are the size you are, and if you don't like it, you can change it. (And before someone goes screaming at me that it is the wrong thing to say, what I mean is this, and it goes for me too, you have the power to change how you look (to a certain degree). If I think I am too big (which most of the time I do) I can change that. Eat less, exersize more, all that jazz. I don't want to so I don't. I have a friend who has a hyper thyroid condition. She has trouble gaining or keeping on weight. If she thinks she is too thin, she can get her doctor to change her medication, and do strength training exersizes to gain. Most of the time, she is like me. She does not want to, so she doesn’t. We both have trouble finding clothes. Me, because I am tall and fat, and very hourglass shaped. Her, because she is very tall and slim, and tubular. She feels my pain, because she is on the same boat, just on the other side.
I don’t understand why all these anons come in and try to pick fights. You are reading these comments with a judgemental eye, and not trying to see the other side. We know we are fat, and really should not say anything to that girl in the line in front of us. Does not mean we don’t want to, or that it is not totally normal to want to. An indirect insult is still an insult. And I fully realize that it is society’s fault, for making the sticks the ideal, but hey, that will not change unless we want it to change. Even so, it will take a long time. But the point is, this is a blog. Not necessarily fat acceptance, although many of the readers are all for it. All the power to you girls! Fatty McGee was simply telling a humorous story of a day in her life, and how she thought about it. That’s it. Made me laugh. Gave me something to do. I enjoyed it, if you did not, why are you here?
I’m with Heather. I shouldn’t feed the trolls, but here is my slice of bread.
Fatty McBlog – I love it.
I do generally appreciate Buffpuff but something about the post bothered me. Here is my question. I understand that I do not have the right to tell someone there is something wrong with their body. However, why do I not have the right to be unhappy with my own, for any reason I choose?
I understand that the reason I am unhappy probably stems from unrealistic societal ideals, and I know in my head that they need to be fought. I think what upset me is the thought that I might be having a really bad day- be pmsing, tired, have just had someone say something that hurt me, and I would then in turn be attacked if I commiserated with a friend in a public place about something I happened to be unhappy about.
I agree that we have to love ourselves first. But I don't see how attacking individuals, whether to their faces or here, helps them achieve that goal.
Love this blog!!
citycat, I've been trying to put my finger on it too - there's something that doesn't smell quite right about this whole discussion.
It almost feels as if buffpuff is trying to create a caricature of the "vapid", ditzy, thin girl who will then fit underneath her on the social totem pole. If fat women aren't necessarily lazy, then why exactly do the super-thin have to be "vapid"?
There's always been this collective schadenfreude whenever eating disorders or anorexia come up on this site, kind of like "hey.. look, y'all.. there's some people more messed up than me!" If I want to be 6' and weigh 90lbs, why aren't you accepting MY size?
Jeez, what's with the BuffPuff feeding frenzy? So she's not allowed to have a bad day and say something that even she admitted sounded bitchy? You know what? A lifetime of having to defend your very existence can do that to you.
As for the "vapid" comment, if society holds one up as the measurement of perfection that we should all aspire to but most could never in a million attain, and one finds one tiny flaw (even if it's real, which in this case seems doubtful) and that flaw prevents one from realizing that by society's standards - even flawed - you are (and probably always will be) considered more attractive than most women will ever be, fixating on that flaw just might be considered a little vapid.
If you want to be 6' and weigh 90lbs, be my guest. Just don't bitch about being fat when you get there and expect those of us who are actually fat and thereby the targets of society's loathing to be overly sympathetic.
Well, kate, just answer me one thing - if I had a bad day and without knowing anything about what kind of person you are, called you a fat, lazy, unhygienic, cow - would you be as charitable?
I'm sorry, but buffpuff doesn't get a free pass because she's been oppressed by mean, mean, society. If you want people to accept you, you better start accepting them.
First of all, Mollie Sue has absolutely no idea that some unkown woman in London called her "vapid," so her "feelings" about the post are a non-issue.
Second, if this woman is to be given a pass for complaining about "getting fat" with an actual fat person standing next to her, a person whose feelings would very likely be hurt by her comments, when she's basically a walking skeleton (see the picture of her at http://tubesocket.tv/uploaded_images/28.1-768482.jpg - her problem with her arms is not fat, she has next to no muscle and what little she has has absolutely no muscle tone), why can't BuffPuff have a pass at saying something catty that in all likelihood Mollie Sue will never know about?
If I were complaining about my fat thighs (or even if I were complaining about my fibromyalgia and how much my legs were bothering me) and a person in a wheelchair looked at me and called me "a fat, lazy, unhygienic, cow," I'd be mortified and feel that I had earned the reprimand. It wouldn't make "lazy," "unhygienic," or "cow" true, but it would be just recompense for being oblivious and hurtful to another human being.
"Accepting" a person doesn't necessarily mean endorsing everything they say, or every attidtude they espouse, especially when it is harmful to other people. I know that you probably consider this too minor to be harmful to anyone, but the fact is that the "fat is bad" attitude is pervasive and leads to all kinds of discrimination.
If you overheard someone complaining that her dark tan was starting to make her look like she was a "wog" or a "spick" or any other racial epithet and asking "why is this happening to me?" would you be quite so sanguine? Attitutes that lead to any kind of bigotry are harmful.
Did BuffPuff cross that line? Arguably, although I still contend that Mollie Sue's being so oblivious of her myriad blessings in comparison to the vast majority of American women is a bit vapid; however, BuffPuff did admit that it was a "bitchy" statement. Do you want her to order engraved apologies? This horse isn't going to get any deader; I suggest that we stop flogging it.
And in answer to your question, if you had a bad day and without knowing anything about what kind of person I am, called me a fat, lazy, unhygienic, cow in a forum where I'm likely never to see it or hear about it, there would be no need for me to be "charitable."
If however, you it did come to my attention but you had added a post that said "I know it wasn't a kind thing to say, nor was it especially rational or mature and furthermore neither of us will ever know whether it was justified or not, (please refer to my "I'm a bitch too" revelation two posts back). But while I might have chosen my words more thoughtfully, I'm afraid her behaviour still rankles" I would probably give some serious thought to whether you had a legitimate beef with what I had said or done, but that's just me.
The point isn't just that buffpuff is a fat bitch and admits that she's a fat bitch; it's also that she claims to be a champion of size acceptance, when she really only endorses fat acceptance and gives herself a free pass to insult whoever happens to not be fat and also not comfortable with their body.
Also, her feelings about the comments are relevant, because Buffpuff said she would have said something to her had she been in the same place.
Yes, this may be a dead horse, but I'm only beating it (and btw I'm not the anon above) because of the hypocrisy of fat acceptance people. If you go over to bigfatblog, you'll see how delusional and hypocritical some of them are. They insult model's bodies but then claim fat is attractive etc.
Way to go, Kate!
Citycat, as far as I'm concerned, you are perfectly within your rights to feel as lousy as you choose about your body, though I would far prefer it if you didn’t. But if, like happy, medium-sized Anonymous, you are not fat, you simply have to realise that the experience of feeling and being fat are very different, especially where fashion is concerned. For a kickoff the industry is almost exclusively populated by non-plus-sized designers, photographers, art-directors, stylists, make-up artists...and models; a closed shop that makes it clear from the outset fat gals aren’t invited to the party – in any capacity. That’s why the clothes are, for the most part, so profoundly imaginative because – get this – even the folks at the helms of dedicated companies like Lane Bryant are not, themselves, fat.
Assuming she takes a size 12 or under, a woman who thinks she’s fat can nonetheless take it for granted that any article of clothing featured in the fashion magazines she buys will all be available in her size. A woman who knows she’s fat will be lucky if that magazine runs a tokenistic plus-sized feature once every 18 months, most probably telling her which bits of her unsightly poundage she should be disguising by donning one of the three – count ‘em! – garments featured therein, (which will also, just to add insult to injury, be modelled by women who are light years away from plus-sized). A woman who thinks she’s fat will be able to sift through the latest trends and select those she feels express her personality and flatter her body-type, safe in the knowledge that every shop she goes to will have some spin on that look. A woman who knows she is fat will have a handful of shops to choose from, (a scant handful if she’s a Brit like me), half of which won’t even get around to approximating that look till everyone else in the world has stopped wearing it. Even if she lucks out, there’s always the chance the clothes she liked have been cut for someone who has radically different proportions from hers which, while also constituting a problem for the woman who thinks she’s fat, is far from insurmountable because, unlike the woman who knows she’s fat, she has hundreds of other shops she can try, all falling over themselves to get their hands on her cash.
Since so many of my detractors seem to be so very big on empathy, try this on for size: maybe the fat woman standing behind you in the cafeteria line as you bemoan your far-from-whale-like proportions, has just spent six straight, fruitless hours desperately trying to find an outfit for a wedding – possibly, even, her own. During this quest she has had a saleswoman ask her if she is pregnant after requesting a garment in the next size up, and another suggest she attends Weight Watchers for the privilege of fitting into the limited range of sizes her store deems fit to cater to. Others draped her in a succession of polyester nightmares and pronounced them “slenderising” because they think that’s what she wants to hear. (Newsflash! She doesn’t. What she wants to hear is: “You look like a frigging goddess in that frock! If you don’t buy it I’m going to beat you senseless!”) One mischievous vendeuse insisted she try on a belt she knew damned well wouldn’t stand a prayer of doing up around her generous waist just so she could shame the woman into "taking responsibility for her health". Then there were the joys of the communal changing room... This fat woman’s feet are killing her, she skipped lunch, she, like you, is premenstrual, (that’s probably why the shop assistant asked her if she was up the duff), and she’s gagging for a cup of tea. Would you really blame her for muttering a sardonic, “My heart bleeds”, or a deadpan, “Yeah, right” if she chanced to overhear your conversation? Because frankly, that’s precisely the kind of comment I would have made, had I actually found myself in the Mollie Sue situation in a snappish frame of mind. But, I didn’t...because the entire scenario was hypothetical.
Anonymous at 1.37, most of my girlfriends aren’t fat and have wasted years of their lives hating their perfectly adequate, socially acceptable bodies – hence my advocation of self-acceptance. I am primarily for fat acceptance because I believe that self-acceptance would be infinitely easier for everyone if fat wasn’t demonised, ridiculed, confused with immorality, made synonymous with all manner of unfortunate character traits and presented as something to be feared. It’s fear of fat that makes women endlessly criticise themselves and each other, (including, as previously owned, myself on occasion). It’s fear of fat that is responsible for the exponential rise in eating disorders in both sexes over the past 25 years – and kindly can the health lecture as justification as to why this fear is a good thing and should be hung onto at all costs; I’m not talking about fear of diabetes, heart disease, joint problems or any other conjectural ailment. I’m talking about fear of looking like the vast majority of the women who post on this blog.
Fear isn’t making society any thinner or healthier. It’s making it fatter and more spiteful by degrees. As for your assertion that anyone linking the words fat and attractive is “delusional”, now who’s bandying careless language about? Why, for the love of Pete, are you here on a site where fat broads hang to moan about their fatness? Is it, dare I say it, the schadenfreude factor?
That's bizarre; one of the posts to which I responded is now showing up after my response...
Absolutely excellent post at 5:23pm buffpuff, you're my heroine! :-D
Thank you, Bronwyn. I'm glad I struck a chord.
I don't remember what store I was in, but I was in the dressing room trying to squeeze into a black dress only to find that I needed the next size up which the store didn't carry. I overheard someone two stalls over going on about how she was sooo fat, and they'd have to get her a size 10. I wanted to march over in my underwear and start yelling "You're not fat, I'm fat, get over it!"
That dress would have been gorgeous on me if my bust was smaller. *cry*
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