Monday, October 16, 2006

To Praise, Or Not To Praise

I've been on and off Weight Watchers ever since I was 15. It's usually about 1 month on, 3 months off, 1 month on, 3 months off. I can see how I've gained weight all these years. I'll gain 10 and lose it, gain 15 and then lose 10, etc. It's a cycle that I'm used to having done it so many times. And I like Weight Watchers, as I've mentioned here before. I think it's the only way I'll ever lose my weight...if I ever fully commit to it...which this week I am. My meeting leader was named Elaine and I really liked her. A no nonsense Jewish mother whose daughter actually attends her meetings. It's a dynamic I like and I thought she was great.

She actually started her meeting by saying that someone recently told her that she didn't praise weight loss enough. That other meeting leaders would spend the first 10 minutes giving stickers to those who had lost weight that week and could brag about it. I had a leader once that referred to it as bragging stickers. Because we're all still in kindergarten and need stickers to make us feel better.

Even when I lose weight I never raise my hand when asked "who lost weight?". It's embarrassing and I'm not the type of person who needs that sort of validation or a pat on the back. When Elaine told how she didn't believe on spending 10 minutes of a 30 minute meeting on praising those who lost weight, I felt like applauding. Another girl in the meeting spoke up and told Elaine that she liked that she (Elaine) didn't spend much of the meeting praising those who lost weight because it made her feel, if she didn't lose weight that week, that she was a failure. That she was there to learn and evolve and the scale should reflect if she should feel good about herself that week or not. Bravo to that girl.

So, there I sat, thanking Elaine for having the chutzpah to say that your weight loss for that week is just a number and not a reflection of your self worth. I thank you Elaine...thank you for making me want to come back, even if I gain 4 lbs that week because cheeseburgers are just that good.

235 comments:

1 – 200 of 235   Newer›   Newest»
Nana said...

As an on-again-of-again weight watcher who is currently on (and hopefully on to stay) I have to say that I can see both sides. Sometimes when I lose I really don't see it as that big of a deal, but there are other times when I have worked my ass off during a particularly hard week when I want everyone to know about the hard-fought loss. I think I like my leader because instead of saying "who lost weight" she says, "who is celebrating today?" Trust me, there have been weeks that I have gained that I celebrated and got a sticker just for getting my ass to the meeting. Whatever helps you make it through is worth a damn sticker!

Anonymous said...

I think WW doesn't work unless you have a personal trainer on the side, or some kind of iron will from god. Unless you are working with a trainer, you will be too hungry/tired to force yourself to work out hard and to build muscle to rev up your metabolism. I think that's how they lose all that weight on the biggest loser-the combo of diet AND exercise.

Stephanie said...

Of course it's better if there's a combo of diet and exercise, but people can totally lose weight just by dieting. And as a personal trainer, I think that having a personal trainer is HIGHLY overrated!!! And not to mention expensive!

Inverarity said...

You can lose weight just by dieting, but it will always, always come back unless you stick to that diet forever.

That's why the only diet that doesn't fail is the one you can eat for the rest of your life.

It is possible to lose weight permanently, but not with WW or some other temporary calorie-restriction plan.

And I've seen almost no one who really effected a permanent change in body shape without exercise.

Anonymous said...

I used to have a trainer and just loved it because they push you so hard. I could see how you'd make big leaps in your fitness if you were seeing a trainer a couple times a week. But at (at least) $70 a session, who can afford it?

Anonymous said...

I think WW works wonderfully...of course working out will help, but if you want to be on a diet, WW is the way to go.

As far as those stickers...I want them to leave me alone.

jessiferseabs said...

Interesting. I've been a long-time WW member and I always loved the part of the meeting where they give out awards, mostly because now I'm at the point where I've lost a fairly impressive amoutn of weight and when I get to say my total, people gasp and clap and it's great.

BUT...

I've been on a plateau for a while now, been maintaining and have eve gained back a few lbs, and I am soooo frustrated. It never even occured to me that I would feel better if I didn't have to see everybody else being successful and me feeling like a failure.

Thanks for pointing this out. I think I agree with you!

jessiferseabs said...

Anonymous 10:51, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody needs to hire a trainer to lose weight. If you can and you want to -- great, but all you need is a pair of legs and some shoes you can walk in, and a healthy eating program.

(lost 65 lbs WITHOUT a trainer, by using WW alone)

PastaQueen said...

Do you know why you went off WW in the first, second, and third place? It sounds like until you can figure that out and overcome it you might end up repeating history. I'm sure that sounds really jerky of me and it's not my intention to discourage you, but I always hear people talking about how they are going back on WW, which always makes me wonder what the deal is with WW that makes people drop it so often. If it didn't work the first 3 times, why should it work this time? Again, I don't mean to be an ass or rag on WW. I really am curious as to why people think something that didn't work multiple times before is going to work this time. Typically they blame themselves for the program not working, but if the program is so great why does it not work for so many people?

Lucy said...

Pastaqueen, in Alcoholics Anonymous, they have a saying: "It works if you work it." I think WW is similar: if you really are sticking to the food plan (or # of points allotted to you, or whatever) and working out (even, as jessifer says above, just wallking), then you are going to lose weight. I know from experience that the losses may come painfully slowly, but they come. If you don't work it, it doesn't happen. I think one thing that's hard is feeling like, "Gaaaah, I have so much more to go. . . fug it, I quit."

Wow, that was eloquent, I know. Good luck, McGee--you often make my day and I wish you could make yourself happy, too.

Anonymous said...

PastaQueen - the answer is in McGee's post where she says, "even if I gain 4 lbs that week because cheeseburgers are just that good", thus hobbling herself before she even starts.

JessiferSeabs - I agree. I have lost 90 pounds with no trainer, no WW meetings, and no formal program.

Inverarity - It is possible to lose weight permanently, but not with WW or some other temporary calorie-restriction plan.

Totally agree, but WW is meant to be a lifelong plan, not a temporary calorie-restriction plan. But IMO, it doesn't give people enough calories, and as someone pointed out above, you need to eat enough to fuel an exercise program.

But this post made me wonder - why is McGee posting about trying to lose weight on this blog? She won't get any support from people like BuffPuff, Kate etc. Or maybe that's what she wants, so she can "justify" backsliding, once again. If she were serious, she'd set up a weight loss blog like PastaQueen, who is doing great!

Heather said...

Weight watchers is wonderful. They teach you how to re-think how you view food and "dieting". Nothing is off limits, as long as you keep track of what you eat and use portion control. And for those who talk about "dieting alone doesn't work"....WW also places a very firm emphasis on exercising.

Another aspect of WW that really works for me is the social aspect. I am getting together with a group of women who are also struggling with their weight. I don't have to feel like a 2nd class citizen because I am fat. And hearing about people who were much heavier (or older) than me and still made it to goal gives me the motivation to move forward.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:41 and PastaQueen,

She's not asking for support. And I don't think a weight loss blog will ultimatly help you lose your weight. This blog isn't a weight loss blog, which I suppose is why mcgee doesn't talk often about dieting, what she's eating and how many points she's consummed. It's a blog about just being fat.

And I agree with whoever said WW is like AA: It works if you work it. Any diet will work if you stick to it.

I applaud Mcgee on trying to lose weight, but I'm not going to start asking her what's wrong with her that she can't stick to a diet. Not many of us can. Bravo Mcgee. What she doesn't need is rude people like you two.

PastaQueen said...

The problem I have with the AA comparison is that AA is free. WW is for-profit. They're making money off of your success or failure, regardless.

Anon 1:06 - I don't think anything *is* wrong with McGee. That's why I was questioning the program, not her.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to be an asshole here! I just get a bit sick of how the weight loss industry continues to thrive and the obesity rate continues to climb and we continue to blame ourselves for it.

Lora said...

I lost 58lbs (and counting) and I couldn't have done it without WW. The $9.95 per meeting was nothing compared to what I have gained (no pun intended).

WW taught me that I could eat foods I love, but just in a smaller portions. I couldn't do it by myself and those meetings made me feel not so alone. Even when I gained weight that week (and still paid $9.95 for them to tell me that) it still helped and made me feel good because while I gained, I still made an effort to diet.

Erika said...

www.sparkpeople.com

Heather said...

the thing I like about WW is that, once you get to your goal weight, meetings are free. You weigh in AT LEAST once a month to make sure that you are staying at your goal weight (if you go more than a certain # of lbs above, then you start paying).

You can weigh in weekly (also no charge) if you are the kind of person who benefits from a regular check in.

rakshasa said...

I could never do something like WW. I hate portion control, I'd rather be able to eat as much as I want of certain foods without measuring rather than carefully calculating portions of everything. Also, I hate counting calories and having to decide what's for dinner within my 400 calorie window. I eat mainly an Ornish diet, works great for me, and I have kept my weight exactly where I want it for about 6 years now. And my cholesterol went from 257 to 132 in the first year I was on that diet.

I think it comes down to finding something that you feel comfortable doing for the rest of your life. If you fall off WW every other month, then getting back on it repeatedly is probably not the best idea. That goes back to the lifestyle change vs. diet distinction. You have to make a fundamental change in who you are and how you operate, it's not enough just to follow the steps of a program.

I agree with some of the posters here that weight loss is pretty easy once you find the right method that works for you. It's finding the method that's a pain.

Anonymous said...

Rakshasa,

WW has a food plan like Ornish, it's called Core. Same Exact thing.

rakshasa said...

Anon at 3:31pm - I just looked up WW Core. I was not aware of it before, but actually it is much more lax than Ornish. Ornish does not allow meat, fish, poultry, cheese, and so on. Also, you use almost no oil when cooking. Coffee and caffeine in general are advised against. Finally, the diet is really just part of the overall lifestyle which includes stress control, meditation, and exercise.

Like I said, it's pretty restrictive, but you can eat as much as you want whenever you want, which is what works for me.

Anonymous said...

pastaqueen, have you ever tried a meeting? what did you think?

lucy said...

Oh my sweet lady of lardiness, I would never say that "weight loss is pretty easy once you find the right method that works for you." I mean, I lost weight on the ol' WW and have even kept it off for about 1.5 years now. But would I ever call it easy? Resounding NO. It is hard to make healthy food choices, hard to get my ass off the couch and to pilates, hard to wrestle with my inner 5-year old and not give in to temptation EVERY time (sometimes, yes-- because what is life without pure, lovely, gluttonous pleasure sometimes?) But wow, I would never ever call losing weight easy. Worth it, yes, even rewarding, OK, but neverever easy.

And a life without the occasional, inulgent piece of cheese, for me, is not worth living, so Ornish obviously sounds like a Death Row sentence.

Anonymous said...

I don't do weight watchers, but I'll usually make sure to lose a few pounds if I have an event coming up, like a big date or something. Then, when the event is over, I go back to eating cheeseburgers and get back to my regular weight. This time I'm not going to do that. I looked on the scale this morning and saw a lower number than I had seen in months. It felt good. Fuck cheeseburgers. If you want it, you can do it.

keryn said...

Praise is one thing, but while on WW I began to feel like my self worth was totally wrapped up with my weight loss. I hated the idea that a week to week loss or gain was so terribly important. :(

BTW - I'm new to your blog, but I love your style! Thanks!

Anonymous said...

She's not asking for support. And I don't think a weight loss blog will ultimatly help you lose your weight. This blog isn't a weight loss blog, which I suppose is why mcgee doesn't talk often about dieting, what she's eating and how many points she's consummed. It's a blog about just being fat.

So why did she write about Weight Watchers? And why aren't Puffy and Kate weighing in here, telling McGee not to cave to the patriarchy or abandon her politics, or whatever excuses they make for eating whatever they want, whenever they want?

Midknyt said...

There's also TOPS - Taking Off Pounds Sensibly (www.tops.org), which is dirt cheap at $24 a YEAR, and gives you the benefit of having the weekly meetings and weigh-ins, if you want to go.

I would say you should check out meetings until you find one you fit into - the first one I went to was full of all retired people and had a bit too much Christianity worked into it, which is not necessarily a bad thing, just not something that makes the 22 year old pagan feel at home.

Which I'll never understand - if I'm 70 and fat, why the hell would I ruin the joy of my final years by watching what I eat? Hell, at that point, I've earned it. ;)

Anonymous said...

I am the personal-trainer-obsessed troll. I just feel like for me, having a trainer come three times a week really changes my body. Like, yes, if I religiously bought Self magazine and did every exercise in there, I would probably have similar results. But I ain't gonna actually do that.

I also enjoy the teacher/student relationship. I like pleasing her by doing "good" and getting better at the running, the exercises, etc. it's my goody-two-shoes side.

I am doing WW too now. But not that carefully. I'm just going to the meetings and trying to journal all my points right now.

Puncher of Donkeys said...

I'll admit, after college I planned on sitting around, being lazy, and consequently gaining weight.

After about a year, I didn't like not being very mobile and having to buy bigger clothes.

Did I go to a personal trainer?
Go to Weight Watchers?
Join the latest "hollywood diet"?
Nope.

I stopped eating as much shitty food (didn't stop completely...I do like Skittles) and started getting up before work to burn some calories in the gym.

Is it easy?
Of course not, if that was the case, everyone would look like Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.
Most mornings I just want to stay in bed where it was warm, but I knew later in the day I'd regret doing that.

I've yet to regret getting out of bed on time.

It's a lifestyle change, it's not easy, but for me at least; all of the hard work and discipline's been worth it when I don't pass out trying to walk up the stairs.

There is no easy way to lose weight and, ideally, get in shape. You just have to figure out if, to you, it's worth it.

Anonymous said...

Puncher of Donkeys - while I agree with everything you wrote and it was obviously well-intentioned, as we have all been told a thousand times by the Fat Police, the McGees don't want diet or exercise advice!

Never mind, I'm sure this WW phase will wear off quickly and the McGees will go back to whining about how awful it is to be fat and have to ask for a seatbelt extender, etc, etc.

JM said...

You know, I don't think I could ever go back to WW because I can't stand the lingo. But I hope it works for you this time, McGee.

Anonymous said...

Just throwing in my two cents.

Any weight I've lost I've lost on my own. But I have had 3 personal trainer experiences (they came free with my gym) and having done that I think I probably could have lost it faster had I been working the whole time with a PT. Of course I'm now a thousand dollars richer. So it's an either or type thing. Depends on the person etc. Actually it depends on the PT too. I had two different ones--and the guy was tooooooooough. I felt it so hard the next day. He made me jump rope in the middle of my weight routine to keep my HR elevated. And he pushed me past where I probably would have pushed myself.

In response to the actual blog post: I completely agree with the praise thing. If anything I felt hideously embarrased when people pointed out my wight loss. I was one of those fat girls who had convinced herself that she really wasn't all that fat (until I saw photos of course). Having people point out my weight loss--even in a nice encouraging way was a slap in the face. "Wow. You've lost SO MUCH WEIGHT." Because apparently everyone else know I was really fat except me.

Pah.

Anonymous said...

what is Ornish and Core?

Anonymous said...

If you think of food as fuel (which it is) rather than gratification, it helps.

Your body needs X amount of calories to maintain itself, if you ingest more you'll gain weight. If you consume fewer calories, you'll lose weight.

Think of it in the way you fill the gas tank of your car. You would never overfill your gas tank because you'd only spill the excess on the ground and waste your money, if you overfill your body there won't be any spillage, you'll just get bigger. And you'll still be wasting money, you'll just feel worse about yourself because you're fatter after doing it.

It's not a perfect analogy because you can't under fill your gas tank and get better mileage, but it works if you look at it in the positive way of fuel consumption.

Food is not love and food doesn't make you feel better about yourself. Except maybe temporarily. It's like drugs and alcohol in that way...what makes you feel better in the short term makes you feel worse in the long term.

Don't get me started on the foods that make me feel "loved". I get the "addiction" factor, but it's all about self-awareness, and overcoming weakness. Just like any other addict has to.

You can have those foods, but you must have them in moderation, and only occasionally.

More people suffer from food addiction than from drug addiction or alcoholism. Figure it out for yourselves or find a good therapist to help you.

That's my best advice.

I think I qualify as a "former fatty" at 5'3" and formerly 200 lbs. I suspect most would agree with my assessment of myself.

I'd tried WW and other programs, but until I looked at my eating habits and why I ate that way I was never successful in losing weight.

-Size 6 for the last ten years.

Which is appropriate for my height. No, I'm not "small boned". It's just what I should weigh for my height. I'm neither low weight or obese for my height, there's a range of 10+/- for 5'3" for small boned vs. big boned. I sit on the high side of average weight.

Yeah, I'd like to lose more which is why I read the blog.

No, I don't have an eating disorder. Or, I should say, mine is under semi-control, I'll always have an eating disorder, but I'm trying to understand and control it rather than indulge it.

buffpuff said...

why aren't Puffy and Kate weighing in here, telling McGee not to cave to the patriarchy or abandon her politics, or whatever excuses they make for eating whatever they want, whenever they want?

Because, in common with Ms McGee, I'm not an unreconstructed playground bully who gets a thrill from bullying fat people who don't share my outlook in order to feel superior. I guess.

Anonymous said...

Ok, I'm going to sound like another troll here, but I'd like to say that normally I completely agree with most things on this blog (P.S., does everyone know that anonymous is a lot of people, not just one?).

I think that weightwatchers exemplifies today's reward-all culture. Not too long ago, I went to an award ceremony in a primary school (age 7-11). Every child there was given a prize, regardless of whether they'd earnt it or not (there were about 300 kids there, that was half the school) and I think that all that tells children is that a) you don't have to work to get a prize, you're all getting one anyway so therefore b) prizes aren't worth anything and c) you're all at the same standard as you all get a prize, therefore there isn't anything to aspire to for the lesser-able ones among you, and for the children who actually deserve the prizes, you are exactly the same as your classmates that don't work as hard. Giving adults stickers?! what on earth is that about? To me, "celebrating" sounds patronising and twee. Yes, you need to be reminded that you have achieved something by losing weight, but for me that happens when my friends or family tell me I'm looking good,or when someone says, "oh you've lost weight". Or even if I notice myself, in clothes getting looser etc. If it was up to me, I'd abolish weightwatchers and their reward culture on the grounds that it makes people feel like crap and is ultimately unsuccessful (almost everyone regains weight once they stop). The reason most people are the weight they are is because of appetite perception- if you really look at what thin people eat, even if they say they eat loads, you'll find it is usually proportionate to their weight (or they do a lot of excersize to burn it off). I'd love to start/participate in a programme that taught people to eat what they wanted, when they wanted, not more or less, in a healthy, sensible way. Anorexics and bulimics would be allowed as well as overeaters, and I wouldn't reward anyones loss or gain, especially not with stickers.

Anonymous said...

I think comments like this are hilarious:

She won't get any support from people like BuffPuff, Kate...so she can "justify" backsliding, once again.

why aren't Puffy and Kate weighing in here, telling McGee not to cave to the patriarchy or abandon her politics, or whatever excuses they make for eating whatever they want, whenever they want?

I'm sure this WW phase will wear off quickly and the McGees will go back to whining about how awful it is to be fat

Wow, for someone who loathes fat people, you sure are good at sabotaging any moves in the direction of healthier lifestyle. Way to be supportive, anonymous!

Anonymous said...

I don't think there is any particular tendency for WW people to lapse as opposed to other diets. There are plenty of WW success stories if you look around at diet maintenance bloggers.

If you got fat, you obviously have the habits of a fat person, so the odds are sort of against you on any diet. But WW can work as well as others.

As for it being a for-profit business, well people gotta make a living. Try OA if that is a problem for you.

Heather said...

I am curious about Overeaters Anonymous. Has anyone tried it and if so, what did you think?

Amy said...

I actually found the "who lost weight this week?" question to be most embarrassing as I got close to my goal weight. Though they probably weren't, I imagined other people glaring at the size 8 chick who lost 2 pounds this week.

As a lifetime Weight Watchers member, meaning I made it down to my goal weight, I can say that it worked well for me. It's not for everyone though. At the same time I was losing weight, my cubicle-mate was going low carb and is now a size 4. Protein shakes and leaf green salads worked for her, eating my low fat ice cream out of a measuring cup worked for me. It depends on what is too weird for you :-)

I think so many people join WW, then leave, then come back, because life gets in the way. Especially right now, with Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up, it can be hard to stick to your Point Target (or your protein shakes) with the full feast on the table. My first Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas, etc. on Weight Watchers I exerised like MAD in the morning to earn "activity points" for my pie.

Best of luck with Weight Watchers, Emily or Lindsey or both.

Anonymous said...

Heather,

Look at their post from Sept. of 2005 called Stop the Insanity. it's about how one of them went to OA

Heather said...

thanks anon 8.21!

Anonymous said...

Not big on the praise.

I think the WW stickers and celebrating is not really my bag, as the author said. The real reward was not looking like a pig and wearing great clothes that look awesome. That is what got me through WW and from being a fatty to being a non-fatty.

NOT a troll, just got tired of identifying myself here because people are always so freaking judgemental here. Tho I love this place. Good luck to all!

Anonymous said...

Who cares if either one of them wants to lose weight? I think it's great. They've said before they wanted to lose weight but were just lazy about it. I say good for them. It doesn't change the attitude of this blog. I look forward to finding out what they have to say.

Anonymous said...

I care if they want to lose weight because they will be like traitors

Anonymous said...

"I care if they want to lose weight because they will be like traitors."

Whatever, moron.

Anyway, I think WW meetings in NYC are actually quite fun. There are a lot of people at them.

Anonymous said...

The Fatties McGee, if I may say, probably do really want to lose weight and look great, but they are a little lazy, as they often point out. And they love to eat, and seem to have food issues and seem to be a little addicted. But they write charmingly and they seem to know themselves really well.

We have all glommed onto them. We, the fatties, the formerly fatties, the weight conscious, the weight curious, the fat acceptance folk, the fat non-acceptance folks, those brimming with advice, the trolls, the logically challenged, the study-addicted, and those with verbal (written) diarrhea.

Hooray for us, the fatty fans.

Anonymous said...

"Weight curious."

LOL, Anon 946!! Great term!

SilverSeraphim said...

Erika: Yes, Spark is awesome!

Anon 9:17 am: Who are you to say that someone's a traitor if they wish to lose weight? I'm in the process of taking off weight. Am I a traitor because I'm tired of shelling out $200 a pop for three or four pieces of plus-sized clothes? Or for being frustrated that my stomach makes it difficult to paint my toenails? Or for thinking maybe my mattress would have held up a little longer if I wasn't so heavy? Or for being afraid that if I sat on my husband's lap I'd cause him serious pain? Or for being afraid I wouldn't be able to catch my daughter if she suddenly ran off in public?

I'm all for HAES, I think it's entirely possible. But sometimes there is something more than health concerns or appearence concerns to motivate weight loss. Sometimes it's just wanting to do the little things other people take for granted. If that makes me, or any other fattie, a traitor whatever it is you think we're betraying...well you can kiss my big fat (but slowly shrinking) arse.

Anonymous said...

Could it be that

Anonymous said...
I care if they want to lose weight because they will be like traitors

9:17 AM


Was just facetiously trying to have Kate's (pretend) reasoning...? OMG that made my head hurt. Don't take everything so seriously here. :-)

Kate said...

Was just facetiously trying to have Kate's (pretend) reasoning...?

I have said repeatedly that I support whatever anyone wants to do with his/her eating habits and/or activity level, I just wish that others would afford me and others like me the same courtesy.

McGee, I hope that you're happy, whatever you decide to do.

Anonymous said...

That was the way I took it too, Anon @ 11:26.

Anonymous said...

Because, in common with Ms McGee, I'm not an unreconstructed playground bully who gets a thrill from bullying fat people who don't share my outlook in order to feel superior.
As opposed to being an unreconstructed playground bully who gets a thrill from bullying thin people who don't share your outlook in order to feel superior?

cherree said...

As opposed to being an unreconstructed playground bully who gets a thrill from bullying thin people who don't share your outlook in order to feel superior?


I agree. That is all.

Anonymous said...

Kate, it's just that some here (fatties included) do not understand your reasoning around diet and exercise, despite the studies you rely on, quote, etc.

No matter how much space you take to explain it, how eloquent, whatever, it just doesn't make sense to a few of us. Of course, it's your belief or maybe prerogative, and based on that, it stands.

Kate said...

Understanding is irrelevant.

I don't understand a lot of things that people do. (I wouldn't be caught dead watching Fear Factor, or getting a Brasilian wax, for example.) As long as they're not hurting anyone else by doing them, it's not my place to judge them for it.

Even if I agreed with the "BMI = health" argument, I would never support the "health = intrinsic worth" argument, any more than I would support the "WASP male = intrinsic superiority" argument.

Anonymous said...

Understanding is irrelevant.

Huh? Kate - to borrow one of your own phrases - that is the "height of hubris".

You know that your weight doesn't equal your intrinsic worth, and I know it, but you must be aware that most people you meet are making negative judgements about you based on your weight.

Kate said...

I don't think that it's "hubris" to expect people in the developed world to behave with a little courtesy, and just because a lot of people hold a specific bias doesn't determine its validity.

cherree said...

people in the developed world
as opposed to what? "savages"?

Anonymous said...

It's not the BMI = health thing, it's more the I-can't-change-being-fat thing. Despite your arguements I just don't believe that you cannot change your fatness. I think you can. I think it's possible. But rather than admit it's possible, you have built a belief system around why you can't or won't. But your beliefs, with your empirical (or quasi-empirical?) evidence, are just that - your beliefs. So, it stands.

cherree said...

I think her point is that she doesn't want to, and that she shouldn't have to. Which, honestly, I don't have a problem with. I'd rather have someone say that they don't want to make the effort, and they'd rather enjoy other things, than someone trying to prove to me that it's impossible (unless diagnosed with a disorder, of course). I do have a problem with the studies she keeps quoting though, because they really don't show anything. We all know that you can prove pretty much anything you want with statistics.

Anonymous said...

cherree, agree agree agree. It's cool, fine, whatever that Kate chooses to do nothing. Fat acceptance is here and there's no judgement from me. It's just that I don't really believe what she believes, based on her evidence. Her arguements just doesn't convince me that there's nothing she can do about being fat.

Anonymous said...

My only beef with the FA movement is that it will bully the weak-minded into thinking that changing their weight is impossible.

Anonymous said...

My only beef with the FA movement is that it will bully the weak-minded into thinking that changing their weight is impossible.

Which is similar to Kate's agenda. Plenty of people are successfully fighting their "genetics".

Anonymous said...

The Fatty McBlog girls certainly seem to think they can lose weight and don't blame their genetics. Do you think they are stupid for that kate?

Marla said...

sMy only beef with the FA movement is that it will bully the weak-minded into thinking that changing their weight is impossible.

That, and all the mudslinging we've seen here directed at people who choose to maintain a low weight.

Anonymous said...

Also, like, the practical advice the FA nazis give on the comments on this blog is like, totally laughable, and highlights just how deranged the movement is.

I mean, "Always make sure to bring extra cash on a blind date in case he runs for the exits because you are morbidly obese! It's happened to me twice!"

??? Like, is this supposed to be comforting?

It reminds me of the NAAFA message boards, where people advise each other to, literally, carry around kits involving sponges and long-handled reaching sticks so that they can reach their asses to wipe.

There is always room for hoping life will get better. "Accepting your size" can also be construed as "giving up."

I mean, that kind of advice is necessary, but it's depressing there is no middle space for people who ARE fat and might not want to be fat FORVER.

Marla said...

"Accepting your size" can also be construed as "giving up."

Word.

Anonymous said...

I resent being told people like me are "obsessive" because we were once fat, dieted and are now thin.

I know I will have to control my eating and walk at least half an hour every day for the rest of my life if I am to stay thin. I choose to use at least some of my time and energy in that way. It's not that big a deal, and I think it's worth the effort.

If FA people choose to use their time and energy insisting that they are not overeaters, that they are at least as (if not more) fit and healthy than thin people, and that they are hotties who would be recognised as such if only people were not so bigoted, that's their right.

But recently I read a story about a young man who had died weighing over 900 pounds. The writer, clearly pro-fat, commented that there was nothing wrong with him medically, and that the man's death had been due to dieting. Like, he'd have had a happy life if only he hadn't dieted. But the poor man couldn't move off his bed while he was alive, and the fire service had been coming in to wash him. Logically I suppose Fat Accepters would have to say that was OK. To me it seems like a fate worse than death. Anorexia is a tragedy too, but it is part of a psychological disorder and acknowledged as such. I think Fat Acceptance is ultimately doomed if it can't acknowledge that extreme obesity is equally dangerous.

buffpuff said...

My only beef with the FA movement is that it will bully the weak-minded into thinking that changing their weight is impossible

...as opposed, of course, to the eminently reasonable practice of bullying the “weak-minded” into thinking changing their weight is not only possible but also their moral duty to society.

That, and all the mudslinging we've seen here directed at people who choose to maintain a low weight.

Marla, I do not, as stated repeatedly, cruise weight-loss blogs calling strangers names or trying to browbeat them into espousing my views. If someone wishes to engage in a struggle I’ve done with, that’s their right and their privilege. If, however, that person chooses to negate my personal experience around the efficacy of so struggling – or attempts to cast a slur on my character for not wishing to join them on the basis of that experience – things are going to get muddy.

I mean, "Always make sure to bring extra cash on a blind date in case he runs for the exits because you are morbidly obese! It's happened to me twice!"

??? Like, is this supposed to be comforting?

No,
Anon 4.53, it’s simply indicative of how shitty life can be for some fat people in certain circumstances. If you wish to believe you’re a step above the kind of “savage”, (ta, Cherree), that can’t even summon the basic human decency to sit out a blind date, I suggest you stop using words like laughable and deranged and making fatuous allusions to Nazism. There is more than one way to improve one’s life; “giving up” dieting, self-hatred and internalising the negative projections of others worked for me.

Anonymous said...

Eh, I'm sad. Now this blog is going to be filled with useless diet talk, so I'm going to stop visiting. I know this isn't a FA blog, but I thought you girls were real. Bowing to the patriarchy? Not cool, dudette. Thanks for the real content to this point, though, and good luck in your endeavours. Oh, and have fun screwing the guy who wouldn't have looked twice at you while fat. What a great catch he'll be.

And haters - no, I'm not fat and never have been. I'm just tired of one standard of beauty. What I am is African-American and short, so there's already two strikes against me in the "OMG!SOBEYOUTIFUL" sweepstakes in this society.

Dana

Anonymous said...

Wait...now I'm confused.

BuffPuffy: Are you saying that it's not possible to change your weight?

buffpuff said...

Okay, 2.20, say for the sake of argument, I agree with you that weighing 900lbs is as injurious to health as anorexia.

Will it stop people from making negative assumptions about my character on the basis of my (relatively diminutive) size? Will it prevent those who are prejudiced against fat people per se from using assumptions about health as justification to discriminate against them? Will it stop fat-stereotyping in the movies? Will it convince clothing manufacturers that a plus-sized quid is worth just as much as a svelte one?

In a word, no. What it will do is provide you with a lovely excuse to call me hypocritical and prejudiced because I've acknowledged that extreme obesity can be hazardous to health. Which is probably exactly why you chose to wheel out The Half Ton Bogeyman for yet another irrelevant outing.

Nice try.

Anonymous said...

That's WEAK Dana. I think you need to give these girls more credit rather than thinking they're going to turn into celery heads and preaching about how apples are nature's candy.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff, from your post it seems you are really reluctant to admit that someone weighing 900lbs is inherently unhealthy.

You seem to duck the question every time this is brought up, instead just dismissing it as a "bogeyman" and thus not even worth talking about.

Do you honestly believe that it is possible for someone weighing 900lbs to be healthy? Not hypothetically, or for argument, but from your personal belief?

Anonymous said...

Can't we all just get along?

>>whimpers<<

Anonymous said...

Will it stop people from making negative assumptions about my character on the basis of my (relatively diminutive) size?

Relatively diminuitive? [Wipes away tears of laughter] Bitch, not needing a seatbelt extender does NOT make you relatively diminuitive. You mentioned somewhere else that you're under 200 pounds, from which I assume you weigh about 195, and somewhere else you said you were short.

Maybe next to the 900 pound man you're "relatively diminuitive" but in the real world, NO.

Anyway, what kind of FA advocate are you if you have to protest that you're "relatively [snort] diminuitive"?

Thanks for the laugh!

Marla said...

There is more than one way to improve one’s life; “giving up” dieting, self-hatred and internalising the negative projections of others worked for me.

Puffy, if giving up dieting worked for you, why are you still so bitter?

Anonymous said...

Wait...now I'm confused.

BuffPuffy: Are you saying that it's not possible to change your weight?


I'd like an answer to this too, Puffy. From what you say, it sounds as though you don't think it's possible. Or maybe because it's not possible for you, you don't think it will work for anyone else?

Anonymous said...

I mentioned the 900 pound man not to encourage trolling but because whenever diets or weight loss are mentioned it isn't long before someone claims that all diets lead either to weight gain or to death, and I wanted to remind them that so does unrestricted eating. And I wasn't using this example as a joke. This was a real human being who had a life and was loved. It just seemed so sad to me that the only thing that could have set him free was the one thing he couldn't do.

And Buffpuff isn't the enemy here, nor is Kate, and I'm sorry everyone has a go at them. I don't agree with them but they are far too bright and humane to deserve all the crap they have to take.

Anonymous said...

Agree, I don't get the beliefs of BuffPuff and Kate (at all) but see no reason to jump down their throats.

Anonymous said...

I'm just trying to clarify--I can't tell if I read one of her posts correctly. It seemed like she was saying that you aren't able to lower your weight. I was just curious if that was her actual belief or if she was just using the idea as a throw away phrase.

Kate said...

I can't speak for BuffPuff, but I don't believe that one can't lower her weight, but for some of us, it's a great deal more difficult than for others. Some of us choose not to have our lives be dominated by the Herculean chore of losing weight, and shouldn't be chastised for that.

cherree said...

Relatively diminuitive?
she's 5'1" or 5'3" and 170-180lbs-ish, as she mentioned in the comments. So, in an FA context, she is relatively diminutive, in a medical sense, she is obese. Yes, I used the BMI as a reference, because I don't think she's excessively muscular.

say for the sake of argument, I agree with you that weighing 900lbs is as injurious to health as anorexia.
Why for the sake of argument? You really expect us to believe weighing 900 lbs can be healthy, but not 70 lbs?

AnaBell said...

"...but I thought you girls were real. Bowing to the patriarchy?"

Seriously? Do you really think trying to lose weight is a betrayal? And I say trying because there is a lot of distance from trying to actually losing it. And it's an even longer distance (you could probably measure it in light years) from fat/obese to fitting the "only one concept of beauty".
what about losing weight just to be able to bow? and then show some ass to the nay sayers? Seriously.

Anonymous said...

Relatively diminuitive?
she's 5'1" or 5'3" and 170-180lbs-ish, as she mentioned in the comments. So, in an FA context, she is relatively diminutive, in a medical sense, she is obese. Yes, I used the BMI as a reference, because I don't think she's excessively muscular.


Thanks for clarifying that, Cheree. Only in the parallel universe of FA Land can an obese woman consider herself to be "relatively diminuitive"!

K said...

I did wonder what the patriarchy had to do with it.

Not that I'm saying that nobody has ever embarked on a weightloss regime to look good for some guy (or more complex versions of the same); but that isn't the only reason for doing so, and mcgee never mentioned anything of the kind.

Anna said...

Some of us choose not to have our lives be dominated by the Herculean chore of losing weight, and shouldn't be chastised for that.
The way I see it, Kate, it all boils down to personal responsibility. If people choose to eat whatever and whenever they like and avoid exercise, sure, that's their right. But by choosing to live this way, they are also choosing - and it is a choice - to live with all the consequences of being overweight or obese.

In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Anonymous said...

Why should being overweight or obese come with consequences?

ShortDave said...

Anna, you make a good point the choices a person makes will dictate how their lives turn out. The only things I have heard Kate and BuffPuff complain about is the social stigma attached to being fat, and being mistreated by others because of it.

I cannot agree with them that being fat is healthy, but I can agree that being thin doesn't mean a person is healthy either.

I am often found upon my high-horse espousing the virtues of exercise and diet and so on and so forth, but that is just what I do, and I am not going to attack a person for not wanting to follow my advice.

But my question is directed to the other people occupying my horse at the moment.
How many of you drink alcohol? or smoke? Or drive a vehicle instead of walking or biking? Or surf the internet when you could be outside bettering your health?

We are not healthy, we feel healthy because everything is easy, we don't have to exert ourselves over anything, and medicine can stave off more sicknesses than ever.

Fat people will always be an object of ridicule until people become happy with themselves, people wawnt to point at others and say "I am better than them".

-SDave

Kate said...

The way I see it, Kate, it all boils down to personal responsibility.

The way you see it, Anna, doesn't include the real-life experiences of those with vastly different bodies and environments from your own.

Consider yourself my moral superior if you like, but please forgive me if I save my interest for those whose opinions actually mean something to me.

Anna said...

Why should being overweight or obese come with consequences?

Not sure what you're asking here...

Being overweight or obese does come with consequences, which as ShortDave pointed out, is what Kate and Puffy are always complaining about. For example, the social stigma attached to being fat, not being able to find nice clothes in their size, a very limited range of men to choose from, etc etc etc.

Railing about those things won't change them. The way I see it is, if you choose to live your life as an overweight/obese person, you're also choosing the consequences that come with that.

The way you see it, Anna, doesn't include the real-life experiences of those with vastly different bodies and environments from your own.

You're doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - making assumptions about someone you don't even know. You know nothing about my body, experiences, or environment.

Consider yourself my moral superior if you like, but please forgive me if I save my interest for those whose opinions actually mean something to me.

Huh? That's hardly a comeback. You could have at least quoted some studies!

Anonymous said...

Consider yourself my moral superior if you like, but please forgive me if I save my interest for those whose opinions actually mean something to me.

Oh dear, Kate's gone soft.

Anonymous said...

Why should being overweight or obese come with consequences?

Are you a child?

littlem said...

Oh, Lord, Anon 10:24.

Having said:
"buffpuff, from your post it seems you are really reluctant to admit that someone weighing 900lbs is inherently unhealthy",

WHAT PART OF BUFF HAVING SAID
"Okay, 2.20, say for the sake of argument, I agree with you that weighing 900lbs is as injurious to health as anorexia"

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Given the above evidence that you are contributing nothing positive whatsoever to the discussion,

GO AWAY NOW!

SuzyQ said...

littlem - it was the way Buff phrased it. The key phrase was "say for the sake of argument I agree with you", which is NOT the same as "I agree with you".

Why do you have to be so hostile?

Anonymous said...

Speaking of hostility, I am just amazed at the level of hatred dished out on this blog to non-fat people. Apparently, they are all bitter, anorexic wannabes, bulimic, etc, etc.

I have often wondered if fat women hate non-fat women, and if this blog is any indication, they do. That is all.

Anonymous said...

According to one of them, the thin or formerly-fat are all full of self-hatred and internalising the negative projections of other people.

That is not how I see myself at all. A couple of years ago I decided finally to face the fact that I personally, not other fat people, ate way too much, and that I, personally, not other fat people, didn't take enough exercise.

Being fat was keeping me from doing the things I wanted to do. Being fat, not other people's perception of me. It wasn't other people who twisted my ankle when I danced, or who made my knees give way on a shopping trip. It wasn't other people who stopped me from liking the way I looked, my husband, family and friends kept telling me I looked fine. I - me, myself, I - didn't admire what I saw in the mirror. And I did something about it out of self-love, not self-hate.

And just to be clear, I am no fashion model even now, I'm just the average size 8. And it is such a relief actually to be able sometimes to forget about the way I look! One of the best things about no longer being a size 20 is that I don't have to try so hard.

So naturally I am glad for any fat person who decides she (or he)would like the same feeling of release. Buffpuff, you seem to have found it by accepting yourself, but for those who don't accept your analysis of the reasons we are unhappy being fat (seemingly that it's someone else's fault for making us feel bad) it wouldn't be enough for many of us.

Anonymous said...

To return to to thread, celebrating a few pounds lost at WW is not about self-worth, it's about celebrating a few pounds lost! In other words, the purpose of going to WW and sticking to thier maddening points system and turning up to be weighed!

And what is wrong with that? Is everyone so insecure that they can't stand to see anyone else being congratulated for doing what they set out to do?

Why do some people seem to need to be protected from the truth?

Anonymous said...

"The way I see it is, if you choose to live your life as an overweight/obese person, you're also choosing the consequences that come with that."

Anna, it's not that simple. Basically you're saying fat people deserve to be treated like shit, cause they can always not be fat if they don't like it.

First of all, nobody in a sane humane world should be treated like shit and disrespected because of their size.

Second of all, do you really think Cameron Diaz works harder at her weight than, say, Camryn Manheim? Do you really not think that natural body type plays a role at all.

I agree that you can't change male attraction easily. These McGees want a cute Jewish guy in his twenties, and they gotta lose weight and get in shape for that.

But you CAN change the way people look at fat people--with disrespect, if you refuse to tolerate it.

Anonymous said...

i disagree about this "WE ARE AT WW TO LEARN AND EVOLVE" bullshit.

No, girl, you are there to drop some pounds! Let's keep it real!

I personally like the praise lavished on those who lose, cause it motivates me to stay on program during the week.

This isn't kindergarden. Grow up.

buffpuff said...

Very well, 10.24, being as you’ve addressed me in a civil manner. No, I don't believe someone who needs to be hosed down by the fire brigade of a morning is going to be a picture of robust health. But nor do I view the 900 lb man as representative of the vast majority of fat people or emblematic of what will befall the human race if fat acceptance became more widespread. I don't think his existence justifies bigotry or proves that all fat people are unhealthy by default or subscribe to an unhealthy lifestyle – some do, some don't, I've never refuted that. But it matters little to those who discriminate against us which camp we fall into and it’s discrimination, above all else, that concerns me. Or, as Marla would have it, makes me “bitter”.

To me the 900 lb man might as well be hypothetical. ("Relatively diminutive", by the way, does purely refer to my size in comparison with his, since I referred to his weight immediately prior to using the phrase). At best he’s a freak of nature, a physiological conundrum; at worst he's a physical manifestation of the world's worst fears about fat. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think all thin or weight-fixated people are anorexic but, if you want to talk weight-related mortality, anorexics are infinitely more commonplace than people who weigh 900 lbs. I have never said dieting leads to death though I suppose, in theory, it could. It certainly did me no favours, physically, mentally or spiritually, during my formative years. I do believe self-hatred commonly leads to needless dieting, and that if the world stopped fixating on fat and promoting unattainable physical extremes as “healthy” and ideal there'd be significantly fewer people with eating disorders. Since compulsive eating - a frequent result of serial dieting – is considered an eating disorder, I believe obesity would ultimately decrease, rather than increase, over time.

Anonymous at 3.47 I would put it to you that no one is born with the preprogrammed knowledge that fat equals lazy, greedy, ugly, stupid, asexual, dirty, smelly, morally lacking and so forth. I think it’s a rare person indeed who can sail through life in a society where self-hatred and criticism of others on the basis of their looks are actively encouraged without internalising the negative projections of others – whether they come from one’s family, peers at school or in the workplace, the media, the fashion industry, the health/fitness industry, (who have a vested interest in maintaining our dissatisfaction), or simply society in general. I have many slim friends, most of whom have spent years hating their bodies, hatefully labeling their curvaceous hips or less-than-flat bosom “fat”. For a fat person, especially a woman, to survive unscathed in the current social climate would be rarer still because you know you are the thing others fear becoming.

Since I sucked up plenty of negative projections in my youth and once firmly believed I had to be thin in order to love myself, it would be hypocritical of me to criticise you for choosing to improve your life in the manner you describe. I never let my size prevent me from doing anything I want nor do I feel physically uncomfortable inside the body I have as you did. But I do think that when formally fat people deliberately go out of their way to berate, patronise, belittle, ridicule and lecture people who are still fat whether by “choice” or happenstance, they have a definite problem of some kind. Happy people with good self-esteem do not generally find the need to bully others.

Lastly, Allison, since you were addressing me by a derogatory name, I figured you were being disingenuous. If you really give a rat's arse about my personal views on weight loss August's 'Fatties of the USA Unite’ thread will clue you in. I'm tired of retreading old ground.

Anonymous said...

BuffPuff: Someone else refered to you as "Puffy" higher up on the thread. I'll admit I didn't double check your name when I addressed you and conflated your actual first name: "Buff" with the previously mentioned "Puffy". People choose such odd pseudonyms on the internet these days that I didn't think twice about it. It was a simple mistake, and there's no reason to be so antagonistic about it.

I'm sorry I wasn't aware of your previous post history.

Anonymous said...

3.47 here again

But, Buffpuff, apart from complete morons who don't deserve the time of day, who ARE these alleged people who equate being fat with being lazy, dirty, weak, greedy, stupid and all the other things you mention? No one on this post apart from the said morons has ever said such a thing, including me.

And you don't seem to mind implying that others are weaker-minded than yourself - I didn't "let" fat stop me dancing etc, I just couldn't develop muscles enough to carry it! AND I don't see why exchanging views needs to be called patronising or lecturing, just because people have another opinion or experience to share. This is not a fat acceptance blog or a diet blog, it's about the life experiences of two fat friends, and, as in real life, guess what, sometimes they go on a diet.

The saddest thing is, I really respect your views. You are probably the brightest person on this blog. It mystifies me all the more that you can't seem to accept that wanting to be or to stay thin does not necessarily equal fat-hatred or self-hatred.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff, you're still evading the question. You say that someone who needs to be cleaned by the fire department cannot be healthy.

That was not my question to you.

I'm not talking about this one particular 900lb individual. Do you think ANY 900lb person can be healthy?

It's interesting that you call him a "freak of nature", because that is exactly what a woman weighing 450lbs would have been 20 or 30 years ago - she would have made a comfortable living working in a sideshow.

Anonymous said...

"Not sure what you're asking here...

Being overweight or obese does come with consequences, which as ShortDave pointed out, is what Kate and Puffy are always complaining about. For example, the social stigma attached to being fat, not being able to find nice clothes in their size, a very limited range of men to choose from, etc etc etc."

I understand that there are consequences attached to being fat. The health ones are unavoidable; but why are there social consequences? Why does such a stigma have to exsist?

Anonymous said...

The mcgees seem bizarrely obsessed with what male "catches" think of their bodies. Agonizing about what Jason from J-date will say when he sees a picture.

In response, many people will rail against the patriarchy, thinking it's evil that these men think women like the McGees are "beneath them."

But it's obvious that the McGees seem to think men who frequent fat clubs (club bounce, etc.) are "beneath" them. They express NO interest in attending such an event, even though they are constantly desperately trolling for a date.

Why is this?

Because many appear to black or non-white, judging by event photos? Because they might be of a lower socioeconomic status.

Again, people can't help who they are attracted to. The subtext here seems to be that "J-date Jason" is somehow evil, misguided, asshole-like, etc for not being into fat chicks. But no one says the same thing about fat chicks who want nothing to do with fat admirer types.

Anonymous said...

I may be wrong, but I believe the article you are refering to involved a very large man who had had already lost a significant amount of weight (300 lbs?, I'm not sure) but then dieted and died from starvation around 600 lbs.

Fat Acceptance is not "giving up". I'm 23 and hated myself until a few years ago where I begun to accept my body. Until I was 19 or so, I didn't think I was worth anything unless I was thin from years of this society and my mother telling me "you'd have more friends if you were thin" "boys would like you if you were thin". Of course, there is some truth in the power of appearance, but I truly felt worthless. I had tried to be bulemic with no success. Anorexia was just something I couldn't do period. When I finally accepted my body as part of who I was, that's when I really started living life.

I walk an hour and a half to two hours 5-7 days a week, and while I do overeat, it is generally more nutritionally sound than all those ho-hos I'm supposed to be eating. I'm of course not a model citizen (who I suppose is supposed to make sure they keep those calories at 1200) but just because my goal in life isn't fitting into a size 12 (I've been a 22/24 since I was 16) doesn't mean I've "given up" on life.

Anonymous said...

If you Google 900 pounds there are many stories of similar people told (I think, because I couldn't stand to read more than one) from a sympathetic and anti-diet viewpoint.

Anonymous said...

discuss

Anonymous said...

BuffPuff = Hubris
;-)

Anonymous said...

littlem = flies off the handle.

Why so mean, meanie? Chill mama.

buffpuff said...

Allison, I apologise for being snippy. I don’t generally respond well to being called things like fatso, porker or lardarse and the pejorative corruption of my pseudonym was bestowed upon me by a troll. Since then it has become all the rage among my detractors, (apart from the one who prefers to address me as “bitch”). I hope, in this context, you can understand why I was somewhat snappish.

3.47, it was not my intention to insult you and I never accused you of being weak-minded. I was simply responding to the comment you made about being fat stopping you from doing what you wanted to do. Many fat people do feel inhibited about all manner of things, so you could have been alluding to something other than the physical difficulties you experienced while fat. Nor have I criticised Ms McGee for attending WW; I made no comment at all on this thread at all until someone asked me why I wasn’t criticising her.

Regarding those who openly and consistently equate fat with a vast panoply of ugly stereotypes, try journalists, politicians, certain members of the medical profession, (not every ailment can be pinned on fat but it’s amazing how many will try to do just that) or comedians for a kick-off. In the UK, for instance, journalist and food critic Giles Coren was recently granted airtime, (and also, one presumes, paid), to research and present a “semi-serious” look at why fat people should be taxed. He was also given a platform to promote this in a popular right wing newspaper. Please feel free to check out this playground-taunt laden diatribe for yourself: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=388001&in_page_id=1774 (Sorry my links never seem to work for some reason).

This kind of rant and the infantile language it was couched in is commonplace in Britain, as are the simplistic sweeping generalisations it makes. I would suggest you also look at the craigslist thread on this blog where I guarantee you will see all those negative stereotypes being hurled at fat people willy-nilly. Yes there are morons aplenty posting there but there are also, regretably, morons in position of power and influence. No one is born hating fat any more than they are born hating themselves. People are taught prejudice by example.

troll said...

(Sorry my links never seem to work for some reason).

you need to use HTML a_space_href tags.

troll said...

oh, and the link you posted is dead. You need to find the permalink.

Stacia said...

It's obvious that some people are so involved in the idea that fat is bad that they cannot handle fat women refusing to be hurt and insulted by these anonymous barbs. That's what fat women are for, right? They're a punchline, the perennially acceptable group of people to make fun of when all other groups are now off-limits. The PC Police will never come to the aid of a fat chick.

These anonymouses just continue to post here time and time again, sometimes attempting to "catch" someone in a mistake so they can cry victory. Do these anonymouses really think we don't know that they weren't upset at Kate calling a model a "skeleton", they just thought they had "caught" her being hypocritical?

It's nothing but pathetic attempts to prove that they're superior to us fat girls. Continuously hounding outspoken and intelligent commenters about the same exact points over and over again is akin to bragging about how they're so thin we're not. No matter what is said, I know these people will never accept that Kate's opinion is her own and she doesn't have to justify it to anyone, or that buffpuff's comments are full of more insight and truth than they'll ever comprehend.

Why won't these people accept it? Because we're fat. Because we have the audacity to admit it, online, where we should at least have the decency to pretend to be young thin blondes. Because we're unapologetic and demand respect as human beings, regardless of size.

It's pathetic and it's stupid, and I'm not sure even ignoring the anonymouses would cause them to go away.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff's comments are full of more insight and truth than they'll ever comprehend
... maybe that's why no one comments on her blog? Because it's so deep and profound?

Anna said...

I understand that there are consequences attached to being fat. The health ones are unavoidable; but why are there social consequences? Why does such a stigma have to exsist?

Because humans are, by and large (no pun intended)nasty. As shortdave pointed out "until people become happy with themselves, people want to point at others and say "I am better than them".

Anna, it's not that simple. Basically you're saying fat people deserve to be treated like shit, cause they can always not be fat if they don't like it.

I don't think for a moment that fat people deserve to be treated like shit, just that they are. And yes, I do think that other people can justify treating fat people like that because (barring a very few people with medical problems) they can always lose weight. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, the fat people are the last group that other people think it's OK to bash.

If fat people don't want to continue being treated like shit, they do have an alternative.

This is why I don't understand the FA movement. I can't see how a few people like Kate and BuffPuff can change the minds of the rest of society.

Second of all, do you really think Cameron Diaz works harder at her weight than, say, Camryn Manheim? Do you really not think that natural body type plays a role at all.

Of course genetics play a role in determining a person's weight. Many people have to work hard at maintaining a low bodyweight, or even a "healthy" one. But then I haven't seen too many photos of Camryn Manheim surfing.

Anonymous said...

But I do think that when formally fat people...

Puffy, since you're so keen on pointing out other people's errors, I'd like to point out that the word here is formERLY

another_troll said...

the pejorative corruption of my pseudonym was bestowed upon me by a troll.

I thought "BuffPuff" was a humorous, self-deprecating comment on your size. Pardon me for thinking you had a sense of humour.

Anonymous said...

No matter what is said, I know these people will never accept that Kate's opinion is her own and she doesn't have to justify it to anyone.

So why does Kate spend so much time, both here and on her blog, defending her opinions?

And come to think of it, why did she (according to her) deliberately choose an unflattering photo for her blog? Somehow, I don't think Kate is as happy about her size as other people seem to think.

troll said...

Pardon me for thinking you had a sense of humour.
She has as much humour as my shoes. That's why people like the McGees and not her. The McGees are funny. They're cool. buffpuff has zero sense of humour. And no, the use of the word "beeswax" as a humorous substitution for "business" does not count.

another_troll said...

She has as much humour as my shoes. That's why people like the McGees and not her. The McGees are funny. They're cool. buffpuff has zero sense of humour. And no, the use of the word "beeswax" as a humorous substitution for "business" does not count.

Bwah-ha-ha! Now *that's* funny!

Anonymous said...

Anna, you're a trainwreck.

If you tell yourself it's "ok to treat fatties like shit cause they can change," and you truly believe that, well guess what, cunt -- karma's a bitch.

I hope you end up with learning-disabled children who are mocked mercilessly for their stupidity. "It's just reading, you fucking idiot!!"

I hope you end up with autistic children who are socially isolated. "GOD! why are you such a spaz?? How hard can fitting in be??"

Or maybe, just maybe, you'll end up with a fat child. A fat little girl who is a loving, kind, wonderful, beautiful person who is mercilessly mocked for her size. A child you love but who "just can't seem to lose weight, no matter how hard I push, doctor!!!"

Honestly, Anna, I hope you don't believe in karma and just desserts.

Anna said...

Anna, you're a trainwreck.

If you tell yourself it's "ok to treat fatties like shit cause they can change," and you truly believe that, well guess what, cunt -- karma's a bitch.


I'm sorry, but you seem to be the reading-impaired person here. I SPECIFICALLY stated that no, I PERSONALLY don't think it's OK to treat fat people like shit, it's just a fact of life that society in general does.

What part of:

"I don't think for a moment that fat people deserve to be treated like shit, just that they are. And yes, I do think that other people can justify treating fat people like that because (barring a very few people with medical problems) they can always lose weight. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, the fat people are the last group that other people think it's OK to bash."

don't you understand?

Oh, and thank you for your kind wishes regarding my future children. Hugs and kisses

another_troll said...

Anon @ 6.34

Um, perhaps you could actually read other people's comments before calling them a c***?

Just a thought.

Gummi Bear said...

Oh great, so now we're comparing people like the McGees - who admit they're fat because they are lazy and treat food as a pastime - with the learning disabled and autistic?

Good Lord, whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Anna said...

It mystifies me all the more that you can't seem to accept that wanting to be or to stay thin does not necessarily equal fat-hatred or self-hatred.

Good point anon 3:47. I wonder if buffpuff would care to respond?

Anonymous said...

Anna, I'm sorry, but you're still a moron.

Basically, you are saying that "you" think fat people shouldn't be shat upon, but you UNDERSTAND why society shits upon them. Cause they can change!!!

Well, it's so great you're so understanding. I hope to god your kids end up as perfect as you. So, you know, society doesn't rightfully shit all over them. For, you know, refusing to change.

Anonymous said...

"Honestly, Anna, I hope you don't believe in karma and just desserts."

It's "just deserts" you freaking moran (fark ftw).. if you're gonna criticize people get yo spelling right..

Anna said...

Actually, anon at 9:19, a dessert you eat is spelled with two esses, and a desert as in the Sahara is spelled with one "s". And "moron" as is "intellectually sub-standard" is spelled morON, not "moran". But thanks for your support.

Puffy, since you're so keen on pointing out other people's errors, I'd like to point out that the word here is formERLY

While I'm on the topic of spelling, isn't Ms Puff supposed to be a professional writer?

And anon @ 7:36 and 6:34, thank you for your ongoing concern for the health and wellbeing of my future children. Really. :-)

another_troll said...

littlem = flies off the handle.

Why so mean, meanie? Chill mama.


My theory is that littlem is so mean because she's not actually little at all, if you get my drift.

troll said...

"isn't Ms Puff supposed to be a professional writer?"

Meh. She's a "regular contributor" to the UK Writers' and Artists' Yearbook and she was "published in a national paper", by which she means that one of her letters to the editor was published in that section. She also "occasionally gets paid" for her non-fiction.
So, no, not really a writer. Not more than I am a web-designer for posting this comment.

another_troll said...

"isn't Ms Puff supposed to be a professional writer?"

Meh. She's a "regular contributor" to the UK Writers' and Artists' Yearbook and she was "published in a national paper", by which she means that one of her letters to the editor was published in that section. She also "occasionally gets paid" for her non-fiction.
So, no, not really a writer. Not more than I am a web-designer for posting this comment.


I've never said this to a troll before, but I think I love you!

K.C. said...

Anna - just so you know for future reference it is just deserts.

Deserts = deserved punishment or reward.

Anna said...

Huh. Thanks for that, kc. I sit corrected!

This link:

http://www.snopes.com/language/notthink/deserts.htm

explains everything.

buffpuff said...

Sorry to say there's no permalink on the Daily Mail website. I just double checked the the link I supplied and it's definitely not dead but, if you're still having trouble and are sufficiently interested, I suggest googling 'Giles Coren Tax The Fat' and you'll find it easily enough. Likewise I apologise for the formally/formerly gaff; the post was written in haste.

Anna and trolls various, I regret to inform you that my paid, professional writing extends slightly further than The Writers' & Artists' Yearbook, who have, incidentally, been employing me for ten years. I've been a copywriter for a major London design consultancy, written several articles for magazines and websites relating to art and design, and edit and contribute to a publication produced by a professional body within that field. I have also just been approached by an established publisher with a view to writing my first non-fiction book. What I'm not is a full-time writer; I am a freelancer, as are the vast majority of practitioners who work within my specialised field.

If fat people don't want to continue being treated like shit, they do have an alternative.

Indeed we do, Anna; we can refuse to take it. And that, curiously, appears to bring the wrath of trolls down on our heads more than anything else.

troll said...

I've never said this to a troll before, but I think I love you!

Trolls are the hardest to love. But, I think I may love you too! We could be so happy together...

I regret to inform you that my paid, professional writing extends slightly further [...]

I stand corrected. Hopefully your novel isn't written in the same chick-lit style as your comments.

The link you wanted is indeed here, it got chopped off when I copy-pasted. My bad.

And I'm not sure how seriously this is to be taken. Yes, the article is really bad, but the guy is obviously in the business of shocking people. From what I can tell from the Wiki, and minor Googling, he's nothing to get all riled about. I'm no Brit, but how many people do actually take him seriously? How many know who he is?

Anonymous said...

Fat haters and fat accepters: what's the point of this pissing match? If you want to believe that fat people are just lazy assholes, you're gonna go find some evidence that they are, and smugly cling to your viewpoint. Same for if you think fat people deserve to not be judged based on appearance. Nobody is changing anybody else's mind here.

Anna said...

If fat people don't want to continue being treated like shit, they do have an alternative.

Indeed we do, Anna; we can refuse to take it. And that, curiously, appears to bring the wrath of trolls down on our heads more than anything else.


Once again, Ms Puff, you have missed my point. And my point is that, while losing weight isn't exactly easy, it's a heck of a lot easier than changing the attitudes of the rest of society.

I'd like to ask you - how many hearts and minds have you won over to the fat side? How can just walking around being fat and having a blog, which no-one except fellow fatties ever visits, achieve social change? What do FA advocates actually do, other than be fat and whinge online - oh, and occasionally in print?

Likewise I apologise for the formally/formerly gaff; the post was written in haste.

Um, the word you want here is "gaffe". If/when your book is published, you'll want a good editor ;-)

another_troll said...

Thanks for the link, troll. The article was certainly written in an offensive way, but the author has a point. I read somewhere recently about "globesity" (the new term for the growing "obesity crisis" in developed countries). Governments have apparently projected the costs of healthcare due to obesity-related problems and the costs will be bankrupt their budgets. It will become a real problem, but I can't see a "fat tax" ever happening - if over half the population is overweight/obese, who will vote for the politicians who push for such a tax?

Alan Coren used to write for Punch; he was always very funny but misanthropic.

Anna - I think the whole point of FA is to make fatties feel better about their size. They're not just fat dammit, they're fat with a purpose!

Anonymous said...

Re: article on fat tax...
I agree, fat taxing is unlikely to happen in the near future. But Giles Conran is a well-known (and dare I say it, reasonably well-respected) journalist in the UK, although he is primarily a food critic.

Anonymous said...

Whoops, make that Giles Coren.

Anonymous said...

Anna, cultures can and do change.

Do I think we can magically make the fat female body sexy to men? No. Do I think people should work to lose weight for the sake of their happiness? Yes.

BUT-- do I think we can make it socially unacceptable to disrespect fat people? YES. People with your attitude aren't helping.

Again, I think you'd sing a different tune if you have a fat child in the future. Will you accept her high school classmates treating her subhumanly in such a cavalier fashion as you do now? I doubt it.

buffpuff said...

how many hearts and minds have you won over to the fat side? How can just walking around being fat and having a blog, which no-one except fellow fatties ever visits, achieve social change? What do FA advocates actually do, other than be fat and whinge online - oh, and occasionally in print?

Anna, what FA advocates "do" varies from person to person. Some lobby government for changes in the law - I believe it is now illegal to discriminate on the grounds of size in four US states; how do you suppose that came about? Some write to national newspaper editors questioning the wisdom of running a feature that stand to offend and/or alienate half their paying readership; or report advertisers who demean fat people for laughs when promoting products or services that have nothing to do with weight. (Virgin Radio, for example, once ran a campaign showing a fat man dancing with a voice-over pronouncing, "listen now or next time he's naked". Although the ad continued to run, it did so minus the voice-over after the Advertising Standards Authority responded a record number of complaints).

Some write non-fiction books, varying in tone from the academic to the populist, (Paul Campos' The Obesity Myth, Glenn Gaesser's Big Fat Lies, Richard Klein's Eat Fat, Pattie Thomas's Taking Up Space. Shelley Bovey's The Forbidden Body, Wendy Shanker's The Fat Girl's Guide To Life, Marilyn Wann's Fat?So!, Wendy Mclure's I'm Not The New Me to name just a few – and no, I haven't read every one of them but, out of the two of us, I'm not the one who needs persuading fat bashing is unacceptable), while others might use fiction as their medium of choice.

Some, like Big Fat Blog's Paul McAleer, start blogs that do change people's lives by providing a troll-free environment for discussion and support as well as information and resources for those who might wish to take a more active part in FA. (My blog, on the other hand, makes no such claim so do kindly stop wittering on about it).

Some FA advocates are professionally involved in implementing changes in the fashion industry, (for instance by educating manufacturers how best to market product to a plus-sized market); others, like myself, simply do it for love. A letter I wrote 15 years ago to the managing director of a mainstream, successful fashion chain, resulted in them actively researching the plus-sized market. I was not only involved in this process but also brought in as a consultant, advising on which of their designs I felt would would work well on a plus-sized person. I actually had to tell them fat people came in different shapes because none of the staff at management level, the largest of whom was a 5' 10" UK size 16, even realised that. They now cater to a size 22 in almost all of their garments. Back then, they offered a limited range of styles in an 18.

Don't underestimate the power of incremental changes like this. The subconscious message fat women receive from the many stores that refuse to acknowledge them as welcome and worthy is cumulative and insidious. The confidence that comes from being able to expressing your personality through clothes you love, as opposed to some bit of polyester tat that happens to be the only thing available in your size, can make a substantial difference to whether someone bags a dream job – or even, dare I say it, a cute guy. And being part of a process, no matter how slow or laborious, that helps change how fat people see themselves and how they might be perceived by others gives me more satisfaction than dropping a dress size ever did.

The way I present myself and my FA perspective in general, (i.e. when I'm not under attack by a bunch of anonymous shit-stirrers who've never even clapped eyes on me), have had a positive effect on the self-esteem of many of my friends, most of whom are not fat – while finding like minds online has resulted in some interesting new friendships offline. Meanwhile, in my day-to-day life, people treat me with infinitely more respect than they did when I weighed far less because I no longer put myself down or apologise for being fat. In short, I have more respect for myself.

I'm sorry you don't care for my writing style or my lamentable spelling but trust I've answered your questions. Have a good weekend.

Anna said...

Thanks for your explanation, Buff Puff. Putting aside my feelings on books like The Obesity Myth which, in my opinion, perpetuate the dangerous myth that obesity can be healthy, I have only two comments:

I can't find the link, but a week or so ago, someone on another blog found an online photo of Paul McAleer. His official photo was taken from an unusual angle and with a fish-eye lens to disguise his size. If he's so proud of his girth, why is he - of all people - trying to disguise it?

And being part of a process, no matter how slow or laborious, that helps change how fat people see themselves and how they might be perceived by others gives me more satisfaction than dropping a dress size ever did.

I'm happy for you that your derive satisfaction from your FA work, but has it ever occurred to you that you would derive even more self-worth and pride from dropping, say, 4-5 dress sizes? In other words, from putting your considerable energy into becoming slim and maintaining that weight? Even if you found that difficult in the past, surely it's easier than trying to turn the tide of popular opinion?

another_troll said...

From the article linked to upthread:

The obesity crisis in Britain is a product of the terrible clash between the victim mentality and the 'Oprah culture' that says we must be proud of what we are, whatever we are.

Absolutely. If you weigh 250+ pounds, a lack of self esteem is the only viable response.

gummi bear said...

But it's obvious that the McGees seem to think men who frequent fat clubs (club bounce, etc.) are "beneath" them. They express NO interest in attending such an event, even though they are constantly desperately trolling for a date.

Why is this?


Possibly because they're not happy at their current size, so they think a "chubby chaser" must have something wrong with him. They can't accept themselves, so they can't accept anyone who would accept them.

I am just amazed at the level of hatred dished out on this blog to non-fat people. Apparently, they are all bitter, anorexic wannabes, bulimic, etc, etc.

I have often wondered if fat women hate non-fat women, and if this blog is any indication, they do. That is all.


It's interesting that no-one has commented on this yet.

buffpuff said...

has it ever occurred to you that you would derive even more self-worth and pride from dropping, say, 4-5 dress sizes? In other words, from putting your considerable energy into becoming slim and maintaining that weight? Even if you found that difficult in the past, surely it's easier than trying to turn the tide of popular opinion?

Something tells me you really don't quite...get this FA lark, Anna.

troll said...

Virgin Radio, for example, once ran a campaign showing a fat man dancing with a voice-over pronouncing, "listen now or next time he's naked"

How offensive! Some people really can't take a joke...

littlem said...

@Gummi 2:04 -

"I have often wondered if fat women hate non-fat women, and if this blog is any indication, they do. That is all.

It's interesting that no-one has commented on this yet."


- mindblowingly stupid in its absolutism, b/c the issues involved are much more subtle than that

- completely misses the point of the discussion, if not the entire blog

- hundreds, if not thousands, of more interesting things to discuss

Happy?

Anna said...

Something tells me you really don't quite...get this FA lark, Anna.

Um... yeah. You're spot on.

another_troll said...

How offensive! Some people really can't take a joke...

Thanks for that clip, troll. It was hysterical!

buffpuff said...

Ohhhh...so that's why you think I have no sense of humour.

Tell you what, kids, you seem to be having such a good time making this part of the playground your own, I'm just going to leave you to it, 'kay?

troll said...

Ohhhh...so that's why you think I have no sense of humour.
No, it's because ever since you started posting here, you have never shown it.

I'm just going to leave you to it, 'kay?

Oh, now, turn that frown upside down!

gummi bear said...

- mindblowingly stupid in its absolutism, b/c the issues involved are much more subtle than that

- completely misses the point of the discussion, if not the entire blog

- hundreds, if not thousands, of more interesting things to discuss


In other words, despite my proposition being "mindblowingly stupid in its absolutism" it's pretty much right: fat women do - very broadly speaking, of course - hate non-fat women.

Thank you for answering my question, littlem (or should that be bigem?

fatfairy said...

I don't believe this. Buffpuff, Kate, The Fatty McGees and the rest of us are not allowed to object to being called "obese fucks" "dumbass land whale" "fuckin Jabba" "bitch" (repeatedly) but if someone doesn't handle abusive trolls with kid gloves, we hate thin women. We do not hate thin women. We object to being verbally abused, having people think they know more about our lives and bodies than we do, being told if you "chose" not to conform at any cost you should be willing to live with bigotry, et c. As a fat woman and FA, I do not hate thin women, or anybody else, and I don't know anybody who does. I am not willing to tolerate self-indulgence at anothers expense, an unlimited sense of entitlement,the attitude that "I can be as nasty as I want, but everybody has to be nice to me" , or bigotry.That is all. No, it isn't. There's a lot more I could add. I'm sure the "thin " troll will have a field day with this. Have fun. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to write checks to the local hospice and breast cancer reasearch, in memory of a thin, woderful friend, who recently died a horrible death at much too young an age. Life really is to short for this stuff.

gummi bear said...

We object to being verbally abused, having people think they know more about our lives and bodies than we do,

Yet it's OK to tell thin women that they're bulimc, bitter, anorexic wannabes, their husbands are lusting after fat chicks, etc, etc,etc?

Please.

I'm sorry about your friend.

fatfairy said...

Are we reading the same blog? Where are thin women being accused of this? I don't mean general comments about anorexia, politics, or women's body issues. I did se the post about "lusting after fat chicks".That was very general. I have never seen a thin woman being personally told "you're anorexic/bitter" et c. Nobody is telling thin women their lifestyles are wrong, they "owe" it to somebody to get fat, or they're deluded.Nobody is saying "I hate you because you're thin." Buffpuff , Kate et al seem to be quite happy to respect all women's decisions about how to live their own lives, and be at peace with their bodies, fat or thin. They are asking that others grant them the same respect.It's more and more common (general observation) for people to think that disagreement, not being "nice" to trolls and jerks, and not agreeing that "It's ok for me but not for you", equals hate. Thank you for your sympthy. P.S. If you feel so insulted, why are you still here? To tell us we're evil? Heard that already.And like Buffpuff, I have never gone to a diet or any other blog and told people they were wrong.

Anonymous said...

LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC.

The FA/dieter rivalry is derailing every thread on here.

Question: Why is there always the post-weight watchers "bump" in weight?

You go to WW at 195lbs, get down to 185, eventually fall off wagon, and end up at 203. You go back at 203, get down to 196, fall off wagon, and eventually end up at 211.

What causes that? Is it just the natural weight gain of the passing years and slowing metabolisms? Does dieting with no exercise slow the metabolism?

And--look, we all KNOW in advance that the FA types are going to chalk it up to evils of dieting and the dieters will chalk it up to some failure of self-control.

Let's not flame everyone-- I just want to hear honest thoughts on post-WW weight gain.

gummi bear said...

Buffpuff , Kate et al seem to be quite happy to respect all women's decisions about how to live their own lives, and be at peace with their bodies, fat or thin.

Fatfairy, are we talking about the same BuffPuff who said:

You know what I think is sad, FFC? Self-loathing. I could tell you how it pains me, as a fat acceptance advocate, that you couldn't love your previously fat self; how it wounds me that you've allowed yourself to be diminished by cultural brainwashing; how wretched I feel on your behalf that you'll be dieting for the rest of forever. I could even suggest that you come back and criticise my politics when you've dropped the diet, returned to devouring whole cheesecakes ... and your arse is once again the size of Estonia.

Or the BuffPuff who said:

Believe me, you are nobody's poster child for tolerance and I wouldn't want to be vicious, twisted, ugly little you under any circumstances. Not even if there was money involved.

********************

I did se the post about "lusting after fat chicks".That was very general.

Somehow, I wouldn't describe this comment as "very general":

Oh, so Nanny911, when you chub out again, you've already resigned yourself to the knowledge that your hubby is going to be dipping his wick in another (thin) gal's candle wax? GOOD TO KNOW!

There have been many other comments in this vein. But then again, maybe we are reading different blogs. Yeah, that must be it.

Tara said...

FA type here...

I have never done weight watchers, but I know that after losing 160lbs, I can gain as much as 5lbs (of real weight)in a day. I think it has something to do with what dieting does to the metabolism.

I'm still fat about 190lbs, and I've decided to stay here because for me I have to eat about 1200 calories and and do no less than 5 miles a day in order to contine to lose. If I don't excerise and eat 1400 calories a day I gain weight and fast.

It's probably the same with weight watchers. You limit the calories you eat and it screws up your metabolism. So if you go back to eating more calories, your body holds on to every calorie it can get because it has been in starvation mode.

So in order to stay between 190 and 195 (5'8) I have eat around 1400 and continue to exercise my ass off and will have to do that for the rest of my life...I assume.

I didn't think that would happen to me because I tried very hard to eat a good amount of calories so my body wouldn't go into starvation mode but it didn't work.

So I'm fat (though no longer super obese)and going back to accepting my body just as it is.

peace,
Tara

gummi bear said...

What causes that? Is it just the natural weight gain of the passing years and slowing metabolisms? Does dieting with no exercise slow the metabolism?

Yes, dieting without exercise does slow the metabolism. This is because when you lose weight -particularly if you lose weight quickly - you will lose some muscle along with the fat. Add this to the fact that if you eat less calories than you need to maintain your weight, your metabolism will slow down slightly to compensate.

The only way to counter these effects is to do cardio to keep your metabolism fired up and weight train. Muscle is "metabolically active tissue", in other words it uses up calories even when you're at rest.

The reason that people's metabolisms tend to slow as they age is simply because we lose muscle as we age. Again, the solution is to weight train to preserve and build muscle.

troll, formerly known as cherree said...

gummi bear: There have been many other comments in this vein.

Thanks. I'm getting lazy to look for those. But yes, there are many contradictory posts, in which she says she's ok with thin people as long as they respect her, that she has many thin friends etc. etc., and at the same time describing the lives of thin people as being joyless, describibg them as having been brainwashed, not being able to make their own choices, as having caved in to societal pressure, self-hating, or self-hating of their former selves (if previously fat) and on and on. This has been pointed out ad nauseam in the past comments, so yeah, round and round we go. I just hope that one day I will see the light, like she did. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go finish eating my baby carrot before heading to an all-nighter at the gym. In the morning, I plan on slashing my wrists.

gummi bear said...

Thanks Cheree/Troll. I'm glad I'm not the only one to find "The World According to Buff Puff" somewhat confusing.

fatfairy said...

Is the comment about slashing your wrists a joke, or should I call the police? The things you mention were observations about the culture we live in , or directed to someone who actually showed one of the things mentioned. Why would you want to see the light like someone you disagree with and appear to dislike? I find Buffpuff to be more or less consistent-more than that and she wouldn't be human. And why are the fat people here expected to tolerate any abuse and respond gently and sympathetically to everyone, while the thin people want to exersize their right to be offended by anything and everything? "Bitch" and a lot worse isn't hate, but not agreeing with you is? If you are planning to take your own life, I hope to God you are stopped. If you are not, I can assure you as one who has seen it from both sides that there is nothing funny about dying this way.Also, the comment about "lusting after fat chicks" that was referred to was not the one I saw. Once again,I do not hate you and I doubt anyone here does.

gummi bear said...

fatfairy - Cheree was joking about slitting her wrists, in response to all the comments here that the thin women must lead joyless lives.

As for calling people "bitch", someone here actually called Anna a "cunt". Is that OK with you?

And the comment about "your hubby is going to be dipping his wick in another (thin) gal's candle wax" was a direct quote I took from the "Fat Sex" thread.

Do you still think it's only the fat people here who are being abused?

troll said...

Why would you want to see the light like someone you disagree with and appear to dislike?

The last few sentences were sarcasm. It's pretty much the image we're supposed to have: braindead, starving, miserable gym-rats.
I wasn't going to actually explain it, but, given the comment below, I thought I had to.

as one who has seen it from both sides that there is nothing funny about dying this way

If this has struck a chord with you for personal reasons, I'm sorry (very seriously).

"Bitch" and a lot worse isn't hate, but not agreeing with you is?
I have never called buffpuff, Kate etc. any of the names mentioned above.
It's not about not agreeing with me, it's about feeling smug and superior to whomever chooses a path that she has abandoned. Again, it has been pointed out many times, you can read the comments for the past few entries.

Anonymous said...

Buffpuff and Kate between them have convinced me to...go on a diet, get rid of my excess flab, stop making excuses and stop feeling so sorry for myself. Sorry, but I don't want to be in their club.

mimi said...

It's had the opposite effect on me. I still don't quite get fat acceptance, but I'm trying to think things through and question my own assumptions. And, after thinking about one of Kate's comments, really wondering whether what I have always thought of as innate aesthetic judgments are more conditioned by popular culture than I have been prepared to accept. I would contribute to Buffpuff's blog, but it seems to say that you have to have your own blog, and I haven't got anything to blog about!

another_troll said...

Buffpuff and Kate between them have convinced me to...go on a diet, get rid of my excess flab, stop making excuses and stop feeling so sorry for myself. Sorry, but I don't want to be in their club.

Right on, girlfriend! Enjoy them skinny jeans!

Oops, I meant to say how sorry I feel for you that you have been brainwashed by the prevailing cultural paradigm and diminished by the patriachy. How wretched I feel for you that you'll be dieting for everymore and that you can't love or accept your ass in its current state. Hey look at me - I've got the Puffy-talk down pat! Whoo-hoo!

I would contribute to Buffpuff's blog, but it seems to say that you have to have your own blog, and I haven't got anything to blog about!

Aw, don't you want to be part of Puffy's exclusive little coterie of... three people? You could always contribute to Kate's blog. She could do with the company, now that she's run out of research studies to "prove" that dieting is unhealthy and may even lead to death.

another_troll said...

Oops - I meant to say "dieting for EVERmore". I got so excited to see someone come over to the light side, that I was typing too fast.

Anonymous said...

Right on, girlfriend! Enjoy them skinny jeans!

Oops, I meant to say how sorry I feel for you that you have been brainwashed by the prevailing cultural paradigm and diminished by the patriachy. How wretched I feel for you that you'll be dieting for everymore and that you can't love or accept your ass in its current state. Hey look at me - I've got the Puffy-talk down pat! Whoo-hoo!


See, this statement makes it sound like you wouldn't respect people who don't diet. Dieting or not dieting shouldn't be welcomed with "woo hoo! go you!", it should be a personal decision, and the person who makes it should be secure enough in their decision to not need to search for affirmation from outside sources.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about "should be", I certainly need outside affirmation sometimes. I freely admit I'm not always strong enough to get through life alone. Knowing I'm not the only one in the world who feels this way sometimes helps. Ultimately we may all be on our own, but companionship on the way sometimes helps.

Anonymous said...

Too many "sometimes helps", oh dear, not good. It's been a long day...

Anonymous said...

See, this statement makes it sound like you wouldn't respect people who don't diet.

I disagree. By choosing to go on a diet you're making a decision to change your life. Most people give congratulations for other life changing events--new apartment, new job, new kid, etc. (Obviously the congratualtions range in enthusiasm...some of them require a girft, others just a: "Woo!" I don't see why giving someone a virtual high five for deciding to lose some weight is disrespecting those who don't lose weight--anymore than congratulating for any of the reasons given above is disrespecting those who choose to live in the same apartment, choose to stay at the same job, or choose not to have kids.

Anonymous said...

"In other words, despite my proposition being 'mindblowingly stupid in its absolutism' it's pretty much right: fat women do - very broadly speaking, of course - hate non-fat women."

Isn't this a chicken/egg scenario? I don't seem to recall seeing a lot of fat children on the playground ganging up on poor lonely little thin girls just for the fun of it. The first time I even remember size being a issue of differentiation for me was when a hateful little thin girl called me fat and then proceeded to make me miserable for the next year. Someone had to bring that difference to my attention.

I don't hate thin people, but I resent the fact that someone with an eating disorder that makes them waste away is treated better overall in every way than people who have compulsive eating disorders (which can be caused by yo-yo dieting). Both people are broken. I don't think people should be discouraged from trying to find a way to lose weight, but I think that the rest of the world should acknowledge that in a lot of ways, it's not just as simple as eat less, exercise more for people like us, and unfortunately, that deck gets stacked against most of us well before the time we become legal adults responsible for our health.

There are a lot of factors involved in weight loss, one of the most important of which is that no matter how much weight a person loses, it doesn't take a whole lot to gain it back, and the whole dieting thing becomes a vicious cycle, where a concerted effort to improve oneself often has the unintended result of making you worse off than you were before. I'm not saying the cycle can't be broken, but you haters out there should know that the willpower required for a formerly fat person to maintain significant weight loss far exceeds the willpower needed for someone who's never had a weight problem, for whatever reason, to maintain their weight.

Anna, I'd like to say something nice to you, but your words make you out to be a stone cold bitch, plain and simple. You're a sadist who says you're hurting people for their own good while you derive icky pleasure from inflicting the wounds.

I don't understand why you haters of fat people feel the need to comment on this blog, unless you just miss your golden age as playground bullies and your lives are so devoid of meaning that you have to troll fattie blogs searching for those elusive schoolyard thrills while you screech "foul" when you find out the fatties have learned to fight back.

Anonymous said...

I disagree. By choosing to go on a diet you're making a decision to change your life. Most people give congratulations for other life changing events--new apartment, new job, new kid, etc.

Fair enough. If dieting is a major decision, then is stopping dieting considered one too?

I don't see why giving someone a virtual high five for deciding to lose some weight is disrespecting those who don't lose weight.

From my point of view (and this is only my personal opinion, believe me), congratulating a fat person for trying to make themself not so fat anymore but, in turn, not congratulating a fat person for deciding to stay fat seems hypocritical. It's as if you're saying one choice is better than the other, which they aren't, they're just different choices. So how about we congratulate no-one, not try to make people diet by telling them that it's "better," and instead let the fat people who are happy being fat by happy and the fat people who are happy trying to be not so fat be happy? And then everyone can be alone in peace?

buffpuff said...

Mimi, just to let you know you don't have to have a blog of your own to post on mine – just a blogger account, which is free and pretty straightforward to set up, (even for a techno-moron like me). I'd be honoured to have you comment on my blog.

Oh....and go anonymous at 2.24.

Anonymous said...

...but you haters out there should know that the willpower required for a formerly fat person to maintain significant weight loss far exceeds the willpower needed for someone who's never had a weight problem, for whatever reason, to maintain their weight.

You'll get no disagreement from me on that point. So how come formerly fat people on this blog get abused so roundly?

Anonymous said...

Well, anonymous 1.04, maybe it's because they invite abuse in response to their judgemental attitude?

As in...

If she were serious, she'd set up a weight loss blog like PastaQueen, who is doing great!

I'm sure this WW phase will wear off quickly and the McGees will go back to whining about how awful it is to be fat and have to ask for a seatbelt extender

If you got fat, you obviously have the habits of a fat person

I just don't believe that you cannot change your fatness. I think you can. I think it's possible. But rather than admit it's possible, you have built a belief system around why you can't or won't.

it's all about self-awareness, and overcoming weakness. Just like any other addict has to.

in an FA context, she is relatively diminutive, in a medical sense, she is obese.

I do think that other people can justify treating fat people like that because (barring a very few people with medical problems) they can always lose weight

Good Lord, whatever happened to personal responsibility?

books like The Obesity Myth which, in my opinion, perpetuate the dangerous myth that obesity can be healthy

Anonymous said...

From my point of view (and this is only my personal opinion, believe me), congratulating a fat person for trying to make themself not so fat anymore but, in turn, not congratulating a fat person for deciding to stay fat seems hypocritical.

I disagree. One is a concious choice to make a change. The other is maintaining the status quo. You don't generally see people congratulating others for doing the same thing that they've done all along.

In one situation a fat person has made a decision that will require them to make a lot of changes, and will require a lot of time and effort. In the other the fat person will continue to do what they've done all along. It's like if you were going to do some work on your house. That might garner comments like: "Woo. Good luck!" But to announce: "Well for the 3rd year in a row I've decided not to paint my house." Most people would just be like...ok.

I have seen blog posts that celebrate the idea that a blogger has decided to stop caring what people think of them and enjoy life the way they are. That is a positive change. It's not necessarily maintaining the status quo. And those types of posts usually do get positive comments as well.

But to argue that congratulating someone on changing something (Hey, I like that new hair cut!) and not congratulating someone for not changing anything (Hey, I like that you haven't cut your hair in a while!) is hypocritical is ridiculous. Cheering someone for something is not automatically degrading someone else that was not cheered.

"You look great today!" does not mean everyone else in the world looks ugly.

Anonymous said...

anon at 4:49 said: "Well, anonymous 1.04, maybe it's because they invite abuse in response to their judgemental attitude?"

I think you're making the same fundamental mistake a lot of people do who are fat and have never succeeded in getting to a healthy weight and staying there long term.

For long term weight loss, you HAVE to be judgemental. You have to believe that obesity is unhealthy, that being average looks better than having fat rolls all over your body, and that health at every size is a crock. If you don't believe all this, you're just not going to have the motivation to change your lifestyle around, something that other people have also remarked is very difficult.

One example - many people who have never managed to lose weight permanently claim repeatedly that there is no such thing as a "good" or "bad" food. Big-food, in particular fast food corporations, are ecstatic over this view. They would like you to believe that you CAN have one of those 1500 calorie burgers once in a while - wait for it, "as part of a healthy diet".

On the other hand, most of us who have lost weight permanently aren't going to buy into that BS. A Hardees thickburger is crap, and should not be coming anywhere near your mouth. Having just one makes about as much sense as doing just one line of meth. Instead of craving KFC, realign your view to believe that only complete freaking morons would shovel that into their faces. All of a sudden, voila, no cravings..

Thinking all sizes are just as healthy and just as attractive isn't going to get you into running shoes after a long day. Loathing fat sure as hell will..

troll said...

Alright, anonymous at 4:49, you quoted this:
in an FA context, she is relatively diminutive, in a medical sense, she is obese.
How is this judgemental?
In a medical sense, she is obese since her BMI>30. In an FA sense she is not, and you should know why.
I have been judgemental of buffpuff many times though, you just picked on the wrong quote.

And, well said, allison.

not congratulating a fat person for deciding to stay fat seems hypocritical

This whole hyper-sensitivity ("How come no one congratulated me?) reminds me of a trophy Bart Simpson had. It said "Everyone gets a trophy day", so he got to have one too.

buffpuff said...

Damn it! I tried to keep away but the temptation of resting my case in the projected self-hatred department proved too much.

For long term weight loss, you HAVE to be judgemental. You have to believe that obesity is unhealthy, that being average looks better than having fat rolls all over your body, and that health at every size is a crock

Good God, 9.59, what are you like?! The fundamental error most fat people make is not hating themselves enough? So you're here to help us with that, are you? How very altruistic. You're selfless; all heart. Really.

As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to be as judgemental as you like about your own fat and believe whatever you like about your own health. What you're not qualified to do is pass judgement on mine.

I think you'll find that the "no such thing as a good or bad food" line is primarily used in the treatment of eating disorders by the way, and with good reason. Personally, I'm perfectly smart enough to know that a simply dressed salad or a veggie casserole with wholegrains is likely to be more beneficial to my overall health than fish and chips, which is why I generally go for the veggies.

I also take issue with your remark about the running shoes. I'll be putting mine on directly after posting this, (as I do most evenings), precisely because I don't loathe my body. What's more I don't need to fuel myself with hatred for others to motivate me either.

another_troll said...

For long term weight loss, you HAVE to be judgemental. You have to believe that obesity is unhealthy, that being average looks better than having fat rolls all over your body, and that health at every size is a crock. If you don't believe all this, you're just not going to have the motivation to change your lifestyle around, something that other people have also remarked is very difficult.

Word.

This whole hyper-sensitivity ("How come no one congratulated me?) reminds me of a trophy Bart Simpson had. It said "Everyone gets a trophy day", so he got to have one too.

Word again. And this attitude is behind is all the exhortations to fat people to "love yourself the way you are". As has been pointed out above, maintaining the status quo requires no effort. Losing weight and maintaining weight loss requires a lot of ongoing effort. Big difference.

I think you'll find that the "no such thing as a good or bad food" line is primarily used in the treatment of eating disorders by the way, and with good reason.

In my observation, that phrase is, in fact, primarily used by fat people and FA types who object to being told that certain foods are "bad" for them.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I'm perfectly smart enough to know that a simply dressed salad or a veggie casserole with wholegrains is likely to be more beneficial to my overall health than fish and chips, which is why I generally go for the veggies.

I also take issue with your remark about the running shoes. I'll be putting mine on directly after posting this, (as I do most evenings), precisely because I don't loathe my body.


Which begs the question - Puffy, if you eat such a healthy diet and run, why are you obese? I think there's something you're not telling us.

another_troll said...

Just to back up my point that the "no such thing as a good or bad food" line is primarily used by the FA lobby, here's a direct quote from Big Fat Blog.

I am all for having more options insofar as food goes. You want to bring in celery and carrots in place of potato chips in cafeterias? Sure, go for it. You want to encourage granola bars instead of chocolate cake? Go ahead.

My concerns are two-fold. First, there's the inevitable wrapping in the alleged 'obesity epidemic'. Doing this under the banner of fat eradication is, frankly, irresponsible and exhibits a lack of actual thinking. Instead of focusing on variety and more foods, the theme is simply, "Stop eating 'bad' foods."

Second, this is setting up a clear deliniation between the aforementioned 'good' and 'bad' foods. The problem is that only an individual can determine what is good and bad for one's self.

Anonymous said...

Which begs the question - Puffy, if you eat such a healthy diet and run, why are you obese? I think there's something you're not telling us.

Yeah, why do fatties always rush to assure us that they eat healthily and exercise? Something doesn't add up.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff said: "Good God, 9.59, what are you like?! "

I'm like someone who's taken the weight off and kept it off. Unlike you. You have failed at it repeatedly. When you figure it out, you get to lecture. Until then, you have no more credibility than I do at telling you the best way to get around London.

Sorry, but the judgement package is an all in one deal. To recover from meth, you're not going to get very far saying "meth is A-OK, it's just not for me". There is no way you can see my viewpoint because you're trying to see the water from inside the fishtank. A lot of us have been fat, you have never been thin. What comes off as primarily judgemental to you is primarily discipline and pride to us. Don't you think there's some reason many of us who were formerly fat have a similar outlook, and many of you who never made it have a different one?

Your arrogance is stunning in that you think your mentality is OK even though it has failed you, yet all of us who have succeeded are somehow wrong. Yes, you might accept yourself right now, are you going to accept your decisions 10 years from now when you need a cane because of arthritis in your knees? Or are you going to wish you had taken weight off when you had the chance?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1.03, you have succeeded in changing my mind. I used to think this blog was fun to read. Now that the comments have been taken over by a bunch of nagging, judgemental windbags like yourself, I'm not interested in reading it anymore.

Anonymous said...

"As has been pointed out above, maintaining the status quo requires no effort. Losing weight and maintaining weight loss requires a lot of ongoing effort. Big difference."

Alright, alright. Then what about a thin person who decided to get fat?

Anonymous said...

Woooooah. How did we get here? I'm totally going to disagree with the whole: "You have to be judgemental" in order to lose weight and keep it off mentality. That's certainly not what I did. Not as you mean it anyway.

You guys are extrapolating a small decision to something very large (much like the whole hypocritical disagreement). Just because someone decides to change something about themselves doesn't mean that that thing they decided to change is wrong for everyone else. Just because I decide to straighten my hair doesn't mean I think everyone with curly hair looks bad. It means I didn't like how I looked with curly hair.

It the same thing with weight loss. People have different builds and look different at different weights. People also have different definitions of healthy.

If good blood work and cholesterol is all you want to be healthy then that's fine. But it's not my definition of healthy. My definition of healthy is being physically fit. Being able to run a mile at a good clip. Being able to run up stairs. Being able to walk several miles without getting winded or needing to rest. Going on a hike and enjoying it--not tudging through it because you're tired. Playing tennis with my boyfriend etc. That's what I think is healthy and that's what I wanted to do when I was over weight.

Because I couldn't do those things I decided to lose weight.

But that's my definition of healthy and I'm not going to hold anyone else to it.

If I judged anyone I judged myself against my own standards (not anyone elses)and I found myself wanting. So I changed what I had to in order to be healthy for me.

If other people want to be fat what's it to me?

Anonymous said...

"Alright, alright. Then what about a thin person who decided to get fat? "

You'd think they'd get respect. Sumo wrestlers certainly do. But they don't recruit fat kids to be sumos because for some weird reason they consider that a lack of discipline.

Anonymous said...

"Alright, alright. Then what about a thin person who decided to get fat? "

I was over joyed when my underweight bulimic friend started gaining weight. We were all there to support her.

another_troll said...

I'm like someone who's taken the weight off and kept it off. Unlike you. You have failed at it repeatedly. When you figure it out, you get to lecture...

Your arrogance is stunning in that you think your mentality is OK even though it has failed you, yet all of us who have succeeded are somehow wrong.


Bravo, anon @ 1:03! I totally agree with you!

I used to think this blog was fun to read. Now that the comments have been taken over by a bunch of nagging, judgemental windbags like yourself, I'm not interested in reading it anymore.

Yeah, it's "fun" to read about young women bingeing and hating their bodies and not being able to get a boyfriend isn't it? Yet somehow it's not "fun" to read the truth about losing weight and keeping it off. You exemplify the childish attitude of the FA fraternity - "But food is fun! Why should I deny myself? Pastries are so yummy! Do you want me to cut out my tastebuds?" Please!

Anonymous said...

FOR F**K Sakes!
Stop comparing food to METH!!!
My fiance works with meth addicts and let me tell you...if you knew what that was like, you wouldn't be posting your ignorant shit here!!!
GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR SOCIETY instead of sitting here and insulting people for their lifestyles/weights/dress sizes
go feed a homeless person, volunteer at a soup kitchen....go and actually do something helpful for someone in need!!!!
BTW: My partner helps people every day on the streets. He is the least judgemental person I know...and guess what? He's tall, slim and handsome. He doesn't bully others for their weight.
He is too busy helping real people.
And if you are wondering about me, I quit smoking cold turkey after 16 years of smoking a pack a day!
I gave up eating meat and became a vegetarian! I HAVE WILLPOWER
I am also a survivor of a violent crime and I am helping myself with that, as well I am volunteering for a large charity to help give homeless people a Christmas.
Why don't you go and do something nice for someone you don't know, without judging them?
Don't post your bulls**t here and try to tell me you are better than fat people. Go out there and help someone and then come back here and tell us how what we can do to make this world better....because losing weight definitely DOES NOT a decent person make!

Anonymous said...

Allison, I'm a bit confused by your post. You decided that you needed to lose weight so that you could run fast, play tennis, and so on. But isn't it implicit in that decision that fat people are worse at running and tennis? That sounds as much like a judgement as anything else.

Anonymous said...

anon at 2:27 - well, it's great that you're saving the world and all, but some of us have day jobs. You also might want to spend a little more time developing basic anger management skills.

Day before yesterday it was crack, yesterday it was heroin, and now it's meth. Big whoop. Most of my generation has been hearing about the horrible drug pandemic since we were kids, and your fiance is just another in a long line of do-gooders who haven't made a bit of difference in the problem for all that time. For each junkie you help there are two more that start. If people want to screw up their bodies, let them. I have more important things to do.

another_troll said...

Anon @ 2:31 - your comment makes no sense at all. Allison decided to lose weight for herself, yet somehow that makes her judgemental against all fat people? No sense at all...

Anonymous said...

That sounds as much like a judgement as anything else.

You might want to read that post over again. It says at the bottom of that list: "Because I couldn't do those things I decided to lose weight." (Or more to the point, I started training for those things, and lost weight because of all the activity. Although I did modify my diet as well once I educated myself on the follies of eating way too many tuna fish sandwiches. :B)

I'm not making judgements on other people. If you're 50 pounds overweight and you can run like a mofo then more power to you. There are tons of football players that probably cart around a higher percentage of body fat than I do, but can run a 40 in 5 seconds. (Not something I can do! I'm not a sprinter by any means!) That's their definition of healthy. (And rich!)

But the fact remains that when I weighed 200 pounds I couldn't run a mile at anything resembling a decent pace. I couldn't walk up stairs without getting a little tired. I was awful at tennis because I had no endurance.

So I started eating better and playing more tennis, and running more to fit my personal definition of healthy.

And what do you know. I lost all that weight. :)

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