Monday, June 26, 2006

No, Never Ever...Don't You Even Think It!

When you're single, it's always hard when your best friend finds love. Sure, we're happy our friends have found a bit of happiness, but we're also, (come on...face it) pissed off. It's a scary mixture of jealousy, fear, and anger that can make you, an overall happy person, not so damn perky. And I am no stranger to this feeling. Actually, being the fat friend often leaves you the third, over-sized wheel on a bicycle built for two. I'm sure all girls have gone through this, regardless of their size, but for me, a fat girl, it seems like it would be harder because us fat girls have been taught from an early age that skinny girls get the boys and fat girls don't. I'm not saying this is Gospel or 100% factual, because it's not...but it sure feels that way a lot of the time.

Case in point: Laura (Previously mentioned skinny friend who obsesses about her tinykiness)

Laura has a boyfriend. Laura met this boyfriend about 3 years ago when I, too, was seeing someone. I was all for meeting this new boyfriend of hers. It would have been the first time we were both in relationships concurently. We could double date! But we never actually got to meet. As fast as her relationship soared, mine drowned. And I went into a "I hate men" phase that, if you haven't noticed, I'm still basically in.

Laura would come over and talk about her new boyfriend while I stewed in misery, but I'd still meet this guy...I had nothing against him...yet.

One day Laura went on a diatribe while discussing her weight. I usually tune this BS out because it's not that interesting and pretty offensive, but I heard her say something that put me in shock...she told me that her "super hot" boyfriend told her to never get fat. He had recently told her that her ass looked big and that she should never get pregnant because she'd get fat and how horrible that would be.

I had heard enough.

So, it's been almost three years and I have never met this boy. I refuse. I know, I sound crazy, but I can't help myself. I know this guy hates fat girls and while Laura puts up the fight that:

1. He really doesn't
and
2. He's seen pictures of me...he knows I'm fat, so what's the difference?

I still won't do it. It's not like going out in public where everyone might hate fat people but it's okay out in the world because thankfully, we can't hear the voices in others heads, (at least I hope not). This is hatred that I know about. It's a judgement that I can actually feel because I know it's there. And I won't put myself through that. Because it's okay for me to judge myself and hate myself for being fat...but, it's not okay for him to.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

He sounds awful!

Miss Michele said...

He sounds hideous. And she sounds like she needs her walking papers from you.

vegancore said...

Wow, does he ever sound like a jackass. I can't blame you for refusing to meet him.

Buffpuff said...

a) He sounds like a splendid catch. Not.

b) I can't believe she told you what he said in the first place! Why do you put up with this crap from her?

c) How's this for a fantasy scenario? You buy yourself a drop-dead glamorous outfit you feel like a goddess in; you treat yourself to an expensive new hairdo, a bottle of sexy perfume, a pair of killer shoes and some snog-my-face-off lipstick...and you go meet the guy. And, when you meet him, you put him at his ease by being your most charming self. Once you're all nicely settled over a bottle of wine, you smile sweetly, look right into his eyes and say, "So, (insert name-of-arsehole-in question), I hear you don't like fat girls?"

Then, sit back, and watch the squirming commence...

Anne said...

Wow, he sounds lovely...NOT.

Love the Say Anything reference. My fave movie.

Tim said...

I completely agree with you on this and it all depends on perspective. If someone calls me fat, out of anger or whatever, I get pissed and will eithe rwalk away or knock him out. But, a former girlfriend playfully called me her sexy fatboy and that didn't hurt my feelings and was actually pretty sweet (in my opinion). But, if anyone else called me that it would hurt me to the bone. I guess it's the same with you, you know you're fat, but for him to validify this, and be cruel about it, makes it hurt more. The guy sounds like a complete @ss.

Katharina said...

Maybe this is me being lucky enough to have a guy that has loved me no matter what weight I was at (and that HAS varied greatly since we've been together)... but uh, clearly he doesn't care all that much about her. It almost indicates insecurity that she didn't deck him that moment, or kick him in the balls or something. Now, I should say he probably doesn't care that you're fat, since he's not going to sleep with you but with your friend, and sometimes assholes like that just have the point of view that it only matters if the girls are possible sex objects. But that is a WHOLE other rant. So anyway, hell no, you don't need to meet him! Why put yourself in such an uncomfortable situation?

Anonymous said...

I must ask. Does Laura never plan to have children? Apparently the Louse doesn't.

Kate said...

Why on earth would you want to meet a bigot? He's no different from a racist. You wouldn't want to hang out with a racist, would you?

I'd suggest that Laura run, not walk to the nearest exit. If she's destined to look like her mother, who is no longer svelte, the last thing she needs is a man who will reinforce her feelings that "fat is bad."

Hey Buff, where can I get my hands on some of that "snog-my-face-off" lipstick?

Midknyt said...

That's scary.

Imagine a few years down the road, the weight-obsessive, fat gene carrying Laura and the Don't-you-ever-get-fat asshole...I actually feel kind of bad for her. From what you've said about her in the past, she's obviously already has some major body image issues, and will probably get fat at some point, in which case her husband will use her weight as an excuse to treat her like shit and cheat on her with his coworker, which will further damage her self esteem, probably driving her to eat more and gain more weight, until she is so increadibly miserable. (I know that sounds over-dramatic, but you know it'll probably happen).

You should maybe talk to her about that. No one should be telling their partner that they should never get fat. And no one should be that caught up in the physical anyway. What happened to that whole love me unconditionally thing? I hope she never gets in any type of debilitating accident either - nothing like learning you can no longer use your legs and having your husband leave you.

What an ass.

Dolley said...

Well, at least you know why Laura's annoyed the snot out of you for the last three years about her weight, don't you? Here's a thought: How about she dumps Mr. SuperHot for somebody decent? Maybe even, you know, decent and hot? (After you find yours, of course.) That crack about the size of her backside is the clarion call of the Mentally Abusive Bully. What the hell, is he expecting her to spawn via a petrie dish? Or does he think that her genes aren't worth passing on? Not only should you not meet him, it would be a kindness to help this poor girl get away. She's had three years of having her mind totally f*cked with, so she's not at her decision-making best. Obviously. And believe me, I've been there, gotten the T-shirt. Hold out for the one who loves you - both as you are and as you may become. My sweetheart knows all about the mentally abusive bully in my past, and has said emphatically that he doesn't care if I'm 90 pounds or 300 pounds. (Of course, because of the past abuse, I took that to mean that I should weigh 90 pounds, when it actually meant "I will love you no matter what, but I hope to God you won't lose any more weight.")

Maybe it's time to update "For richer, for poorer, for better, for worse" to include "for thinner, for fatter." It might weed out a lot of superficial jerks from the get-go.

Heather said...

I was thinking that if this girl is so obsessed with being thin, having a guy tell her that her ass is getting bigger may very well drive her to an eating disorder.

How amazing is it that there are men out there that few like anything less than a Barbie Doll is beneath them? Where does this entitlement come from?

I know, women can be the same way, so don't yell at me guys!

Anonymous said...

Dolley -

I loved this, "Maybe it's time to update "For richer, for poorer, for better, for worse" to include "for thinner, for fatter." It might weed out a lot of superficial jerks from the get-go."

I may jusy put that in my vows!

floradoragirl37 said...

Hi, everyone
I am wondering if Laura's insecurity about her weight comes from remarks from this guy? I still don't think that she should make "fat" comments in front of you, because it isn't right.
If she has been with him for 3 years, who knows what kind of garbage he has put inside her mind? It could possibly launch her into eating disorder.
I hope she dumps him. If a guy is a jerk like that, it doesn't matter how "hot" he is, he just isn't worth it.

PastaQueen said...

thankfully, we can't hear the voices in others heads

You can't? Huh. Maybe I should go see that psychiatrist after all :)

Stephb0b said...

I have felt the same way on many occasions. I never want to meet my skinny friend's boyfriends for fear they might notice I'm fat. I'm not so worried about it anymore since skinny friend is now fat! Any hoot- point is, I think it's normal to feel that way especially since you know where he stands with weight.

JessiferSeabs said...

Soooo... does Laura not want to have kids? Because I don't know why she'd bother wasting her time with a guy who doesn't want her to get pregnant because she'll get fat, unless kids are not in the cards for her anyway.

I mean, aside from the obvious, which is that he's clearly a mysoginistic asshole, it's illogical to perpetuate a relationship that might not ever go anywhere.

I wouldn't meet him either.

JessiferSeabs said...

Soooo... does Laura not want to have kids? Because I don't know why she'd bother wasting her time with a guy who doesn't want her to get pregnant because she'll get fat, unless kids are not in the cards for her anyway.

I mean, aside from the obvious, which is that he's clearly a mysoginistic asshole, it's illogical to perpetuate a relationship that might not ever go anywhere.

I wouldn't meet him either.

Denise said...

If you think they'll end up married and you want to keep Laura in your life, you'll probably have to meet him at some point. My advice? Be as polite but chilly as possible and make him feel like an ass. He's the one that's in the wrong, not you, and he should know it.

Heather said...

I feel very badly for Laura and not just b/c of the a-hole she is dating. It was mentioned that you are normally able to tune out her ranting about her weight b/c it sometimes gets offensive. How sad it must be for Laura to be so insecure about herself that she ends up insulting her heavy friend in order to make herself feel better. Maybe she's not aware of the fact that she does it, but it's still got to be hard for you to listen to!

Anonymous said...

really we are only hearing one side of the story. who knows what context the Boyfriend really spoke such things. I have said only w/ little jest NO FAT GUYS...I befriend chubby guys, if warranted I value their opinion, and I don't think they are "less worthy"-- I merely am NOT sexually attracted to them. But attraction is not an essential component for me to respect someone. ~Annie

Regina said...

Why keep a friend who regularly offends you with her diatribes about weight? The boyfriend isn't the one you should be focusing on. I'd cut HER out, or at least I'd call her out on how she insults me.

Anonymous said...

For the nicer side of this issue, a man extols the virtues of of more cushion for the pushin':

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/06/22/big_love/index.html

(you have to watch an ad to get to it).

There's a full-scale war in the comments section though.

Sheila

Anonymous said...

Whether he hates fat or skinny people, he sounds like a superficial dunce. Comments like "she should never get pregnant because she'd get fat" indicate someone who has either become trapped in perpetual early-adolescence, or is just a soulless sack of sh*t. Either way, not worth your time or trouble, and most likely, not worth Laura's either. A real man has a soul and the intellectual capacity to communicate with others as real people, and not as objects. Laura's little boy should go get his little self a copy of Maxim and hide out in his playroom until he's ready to deal with adults.

Anonymous said...

That's my man who just posted. I've turned him onto your blog, we look forward to every new entry.

Anonymous said...

Sheila,

My interest has been duly piqued. I, however, lamentably cannot find the link for the ad and cannot read it. How oh how do I find the link. Is it something to do with the cookies?

Anyone??

Anonymous said...

Hi anon,

I guess you could just try going to Salon.com -- there should be an option to "view an ad to read salon." click yes, sit through it and then you'll get a link that says, "enter salon." click on that, and in the search field of the home page, type "big love," which was the name of the article.

Hope this helps!

Sheila

Stacia said...

I wouldn't meet him, either. Honestly, if he's going to tell his girlfriend to never become X, it doesn't matter what X is, it's offensive to me.

If she's been ranting about her weight and has a boyfriend who also makes negative comments about weight, well, I don't know that I'd hang around either of them anymore. It's not my place to tell someone to dump their friend of course. But personally I wouldn't be able to handle it. I just don't have the time.

My husband's mother showed her boyfriend my photo years ago and he apparently had a fit about how big I was. (Which is funny because he's a stupid racist jerk with two major physical deformities -- you'd think he would know what it was like to be called names based on physical appearance!) My MIL is the kind of person who enjoys telling people what others think of them, then feigning a kind of "oh, did that upset you?" attitude. So she came running to me to tell me what her boyfriend had said, and I refused to deal with either of them ever again. It's been a decade and I don't regret it.

littlem said...

"But personally I wouldn't be able to handle it. I just don't have the time."

What Stacia said.

He needs to watch "Say Anything". Sounds like he's much more Joe than Lloyd.

(And the really snarky mean part of me is wondering whether Laura just made it up to rile you. I've had passive-aggressive frenemies do worse.)

I'm getting an error message that the Salon tag is broken. Try cutting an and pasting this:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/06/22/big_love/

GoBetty said...

Just phase this jerk Laura out of your life please. For reals. She sounds like not a cool friend at all.

EatingAin'tBad said...

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Laura has got to go. Nicer people than me (see above) feel badly for her, but I just think she's hurting you. Maybe part of your issues w/ your body allow you to keep a friend like this b/c maybe you think (in some part of your brain) that you deserve to be treated the way she treats you? That was my incomprehensible psycho babble for the day.
Dump her. Tell her if she ever needs help/support re leaving her emotionally abusive boyfriend you will be there quick like a bunny. Otherwise, she needs to take her issues and find someone else to dump them on. There are plenty of skinny women out there who hate their bodies. I'm SURE she'll be able to find someone to talk to.

If you do end up meeting the loooozer boyfriend, I say call him on his fat hatred. Meet him for 2 minutes, tell him you don't hang w/ people who hate fat people and then shake your ass out the door. You don't need to get into a discussion w/ the guy where you defend yourself. You just need to tell him to shove it.

And by the way, LOSE LAURA.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff said: "c) How's this for a fantasy scenario? You buy yourself a drop-dead glamorous outfit you feel like a goddess in; you treat yourself to an expensive new hairdo, a bottle of sexy perfume, a pair of killer shoes and some snog-my-face-off lipstick...and you go meet the guy. And, when you meet him, you put him at his ease by being your most charming self. Once you're all nicely settled over a bottle of wine, you smile sweetly, look right into his eyes and say, "So, (insert name-of-arsehole-in question), I hear you don't like fat girls?"

Buffpuff, somehow I think this would be futile. Men who are not attracted to fat women aren't going to be impressed by a nice outfit or expensive shoes - all they see in front of them is a "pig wearing lipstick". Conversely, to them Giselle Bundchen is going to look good in tattered jeans and a motor oil stained T-shirt.

I'm not fashion savvy, but I've overheard more than one person snicker at a fat woman who's spent several hundred on her outfit. It's the whole "quit shopping and spend the time at the gym" mentality. Applies equally to men too, I've had people compliment me on how well a $150 off-the-rack suit fits me while my overweight brother is standing right next to me in a Hugo Boss suit and Bruno Mali shoes. It's the body they're seeing, not the clothes.

It's kind of silly to reject conventional standards of attractiveness on body size and then run out and wholeheartedly embrace the same conventional standards for your apparel..

Alex said...

"http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/06/22/big_love/index.html

(you have to watch an ad to get to it).

There's a full-scale war in the comments section though."


God, I just spent several hours wading through that comment section so I could post my own reply. The people in there are truely, truely sick.

But aside from that - I know this will sound terrible of me, but doesn't Laura kind of.. well.. deserve it? If one of my 'friends' decided to constantly say mean things relating to my size I think them getting stuck with a horrible guy like that is even fair punishment. Plus, is she doesn't have the insight to see that he's a total asshole, what's stopping her from making the same mistakes in the future.

Don't bother meeting him, it'll probably be a waste of time and I'm practically positive that the man will say something insulting to you, which you don't deserve.

Other than that, great blog. I don't read blogs too often, but you hooked me as a fan.

buffpuff said...

It's kind of silly to reject conventional standards of attractiveness on body size and then run out and wholeheartedly embrace the same conventional standards for your apparel

Oh really, anonymous? So, in your opinion, I should be fulfilling the archetypal "such a shame the poor thing's let herself go" fat-stereotype by looking like I get dressed in the dark? I don't think so! For one thing I like feminine frippery way too much. For another if there's more of me to notice if I look like I've been thrown together in a gale then, by the same token, there's every bit as much of me to notice if I'm looking good.

All I'm rejecting in this instance, is the notion that somebody's body size precludes them from being attractive or, for that matter, stylish. And who said anything about conventional? True personal style has little to do with money, size or what anybody else is wearing. It's about knowing what suits you and working it. Maybe your bro was simply wearing the wrong suit because a big guy in the right threads has presence.

A confident, relaxed, funkily attired fat woman garners a whole lot more personal respect than an apologetic frump. My suggestion that the webmistress glam herself up to the nines was not in order to seduce the heinous little creep. It was about confounding expectations, calling him out on his bigotry and making him squirm in front of his girlfriend.

miguel jay said...

I'm sorry to think of it this way and wish I could be more understanding, but your friend has created this whole problem for you; you've not had so much as a blink of first-person contact with this other (yes, maybe, evil) person. Everything your friend claims may be true.

Throwing out context and intent and stuff like that though (because if it's true then these things don't matter; he's scum) it might be worth a moment to think back to a time when you thought, "I can't believe it; she just said something so nice I NEVER expected it from her. That's so cool." I'm thinking there haven't been a bunch of those moments.

It always amazes me how these supposed friends can adopt a pose of distance when they say these things, because it implies that they are unable to control their internal democracy or something. But again, never do you hear anything resembling kindness without shock and a quick scan of the hills for the next assault...

So, remember: everything your friend says may also be false.

Which doesn't make it easier, but what good is?

M said...

Well, on the bright side of the "she should never get pregnant because she'd get fat and how horrible that would be," statement at least he probably won't be passing those genes along!

Anonymous said...

buffpuff said: "Oh really, anonymous? So, in your opinion, I should be fulfilling the archetypal "such a shame the poor thing's let herself go" fat-stereotype by looking like I get dressed in the dark?"

Nice strawman. As usual from you, buffpuff, lots of words and very little logic. Stick to writing magazine articles and whiny complaints to newspapers, the great British novel is not in your future.

Let's start with "expensive new hairdo". Why does the hairdo have to be expensive? Because spending more money somehow makes you more attractive? What's wrong with the way your hair looks every other day of the week?

This is the mentality of "I can look better than the skinny gals through my superior sense of fashion" that about 8 gazillion fat women have bought into. WRONG. If someone doesn't like the way you look because you're fat, no matter how much money you spend on your hair, they're still not going to like the way you look.

You may understand being a fat woman, but trust me, you know zilch about being the typical male.

Buffpuff said...

Why, Antipuff, is that you, dear heart? How flattering to discover you've been keeping tabs on my extra-curricular activities! Alas, however much you may grovel and cajole, I will never consent to grant you my hand in marriage...

1) Re. the great British novel. I'm entirely literary pretension-free. The lowbrow, accessible, popular British novel would suit me just fine. In fact I'm thinking a series.

2) Re. the hairdo. I've a professional hairdresser in my family and have never had to pay for a coif in my life. However, a trip to the salon works out pretty damned expensive for women. And most women who take pride in their appearance get their hair seen to pretty regularly. Somehow I don't have you pegged for the kinda guy who'd go in for a dye-job, highlights or extensions so you probably don't realise just how costly these things are. Hell, who knows? Maybe you're bald. I should care.

3) I never, (stifles yawn), said: I "can look better than skinny girls through my superior sense of fashion". If you recollect I said style had nothing to do with size. I opined that a confident, relaxed, well-turned out fat woman commands more respect than one who fulfills the stereotype. Last time I checked, respect was an entirely different kettle of fish to rampant, unbridled, what-am-I-doing-dating-this-thin-woman?, chubby-chasing lust.

4) Are you seriously claiming a "typical male" is incapable of being friends with someone he doesn't like the look of? Jeez, what kind of world do you frequent? I myself have several, quite close male friends, none of whom, to the best of my knowledge, want to get it on with me. Assuming Laura's boyfriend has any saving graces whatsoever, (which, admittedly, seems dubious), one might imagine he's at least capable of socialising with a woman he doesn't want to take to bed.

floradoragirl37 said...

Hi, Buffpuff
i agree with you...
I had gone to a class several years ago. There was a big girl in my class. She was pretty, but never really dressed outstanding (nobody did, as it was a classroom)
Anyway, when we all went to our grad, this girl came with her husband wearing the most stunning gold dress. She looked gorgeous.
Everyone was in awe when she came into the room.
Even some of the guys who wouldn't have been into a "big" girl (not that it mattered because she was married) thought she was beautiful. She also carried herself with a lot of grace and dignity.
I was also dressed nicely, and one very handsome young man in the class told me I looked beautiful and kissed my hand...right in front of my boyfriend! He sulked the whole time, but I was in my glory. I graduated with honors.
Have a great day
Jennie

buffpuff said...

Cheers, Jennie! You too.

Kim said...

WOW, I don't even know what to say. I find it sad that your friend would even go there.

Anonymous said...

I sort of agree with you, Buffpuff, that having a nice appearance commands more respect.

But if a woman's "problem" (or perceived problem, or whatever), is fat, even if she is dressed very well, people will criticize her.

Look at celebrities who are considered overweight. They were expensive clothes and put a lot of work into their appearance, and yet many people still don't find them attractive because fat is something you can't hide, even if your clothes are very flattering.

Plus, haha...what if the she says, "So I've heard you don't like fat women?" and he just says, "Yes."

buffpuff said...

...if a woman's "problem" (or perceived problem, or whatever), is fat, even if she is dressed very well, people will criticize her.

Unless the meeting solely hinges on the presence or absence of sexual attraction, such as a blind date, I can't see why any reasonable, mature person would feel the need to critisise her, least of all to her face. Plus I'd suggest the more genuinely poised she is the less they'd feel they had a license to do so anyway. At least that's been my experience.

Re. the scenario I posited I guess it just depends on how confident the woman was as to how she'd handle that "yes". Personally I'd favour "and why is that exactly?" as it yielded a satisfyingly squirmy result the one and only time I've ever done it. Someone else might smile, nod, say, "well how about that? You really are as big a horse's arse as Laura said you were" and leave. There's even an argument for being more provocative or even downright antagonistic; perhaps, if her boyfriend really let rip with the fat-hatred, Laura might realise she's hitched her wagon to a bucket of shit. If not, one can only hope Lindsey/Emily might come to their senses when it comes to poor old Laura.

Look at celebrities who are considered overweight.... yet many people still don't find them attractive because fat is something you can't hide, even if your clothes are very flattering.

Now you're talking about something else entirely. I have said elsewhere that we live in a culture of extreme self-hatred and the double-edged sword of celebrity worship and vilification is routinely used by the media to keep us in our self-loathing place, (on a diet, down the gym, under the knife and paying handsomely for the privilege of feeling bad).

Celebrity worship speaks for itself but here, in the UK, we also have any amount of cheap rags featuring snapshots of celebrities' zits, cellulite, post-pregnancy bulges and less-than-glamorous, off-duty wardrobes. Far from making ordinary people feel better about themselves the judgemental headlines which accompany these pictures simply continue the cycle of hatred by encouraging us to pick holes in others and ourselves while continuing to finance the magazines that nurture our insecurities.

I'd also like to draw your attention to your phrase, "celebrities who are considered overweight". Currently, fat is the worst thing you can call someone, regardless of whether they are or not. How many celebrities, aside from Jack Black, Camryn Manheim and a handful of ex-actor, weight-fluctuating chat-show hosts can you think of who are actually fat, never mind make it into magazines which trade on celebrity envy? In a climate where we are actively encouraged to pillory people we don't even know for fat they don't even have, is it any wonder Laura's such a self-preoccupied mess and her boyfriend thinks he has a God-given right to lay down the law about the size of her arse?

Anonymous said...

"I'd also like to draw your attention to your phrase, "celebrities who are considered overweight". Currently, fat is the worst thing you can call someone, regardless of whether they are or not. How many celebrities, aside from Jack Black, Camryn Manheim and a handful of ex-actor, weight-fluctuating chat-show hosts can you think of who are actually fat, never mind make it into magazines which trade on celebrity envy?"

That's why I used the word considered. I don't think there are many fat famous people at all. There are a few more that I can think of, but there are famous mostly within the minority community, and don't get as much (if any) time in those magazines (Queen Latifa, Big Pun, Biggie etc are certainly famous, but not in the same way as Hollywood stars.) I personally don't consider very many people fat (overweight? I'm not sure which term is less insulting. I once got cursed out for using the term fat in a neutral way so I try to stay away from it).

My main point, really, is that fat discrimination, in my experience, is really not something that makes people squirm when called out on it. Unlike racism or another kind of discrimination, fat discrimination is accepted and encouraged, considered very humorous etc.

I see this as the kind of story he'd go back and tell his buddies about, not even because he's a major asshole, but because this would be the reaction of a lot of normal people.

It also depends on how fat the woman is. If he thinks she's really, really big, that'd probably further lessen the effectiveness of your suggestion.

We are really arguing over the guy's hypothetical reaction, but since neither of us knows him well, it's anyone's guess how he could react. I just don't see a man like this either a)suddenly realizing that fat women aren't all snobs or b)feeling bad or uncomfortable for being called out on not liking fat people.

Most people, I think, don't really consider not liking fat people a big deal, or something they need to correct, or something that makes them unkind.

buffpuff said...

Anonymous, please feel free to call me fat in a neutral manner since I don't consider it an insult, merely a statement of fact :- )

Most people, I think, don't really consider not liking fat people a big deal, or something they need to correct, or something that makes them unkind.

And that's precisely why, in my opinion, they should be educated and stereotypes bucked. While fat discrimination is most definitely viewed as acceptable, that doesn't make it right or inoffensive.

Again I'm forced to use the words 'rational and mature' as qualifiers but, in my experience, someone who has chanced to find themselves in the company of a fat person long enough to start viewing them as an agreeable human being rather than an ugly abstract concept, will sometimes question their prejudice/unkindness if that fat person calls them out on it. What's more, so might other parties present - their own friends or family, for instance, whose opinions will count even if the fat person's don't. I've seen this happen on a couple of occasions too.

I've stood up for absent (and present) fat people when they've been insulted in my hearing and have more than once elicited an embarrassed response of, "but you're not fat! I never think of you as fat!" Since I patently am, they could always be lying to placate me but, as these are people who know me to some degree, I would simply suggest they've reached a stage where they view me as more than my fat. Plus I find the less one conforms to the perceived stereotype the less folk are likely to fuck with you...which brings me neatly back to the self-confidence thing again.

(And gah! How could I have forgotten Queen Latifah. I swear I could turn lesbian for that woman, she's so beautiful!)

Anonymous said...

buffpuff, I replied to your post originally. Not sure what antipuff is?

My point is simple, which you've again ignored.

If a guy is turned off by fat, then getting an expensive hairdo, and expensive shoes, and an expensive dress won't turn you into a raving beauty that he just MUST have. Like I said, he's only going to see a "pig wearing lipstick". So you might think that dolling yourself up and meeting this man will give you the chance to cut him down when he's really getting into you - but in reality he'll be repulsed whether you have on $2 a tube lipstick or $40 a tube lipstick.

So exactly how is going to all that time and expense to make yourself pretty OK, but losing weight is abhorrent because men should accept you for who you are?

Midknyt said...

Anon 11:15 -

I think you are kind of also missing the point. Sure, if a man is not attracted to fat women, then no, looking divine might not make a difference to him. However, what I believe buffpuff was getting at, is that doesn't mean we need to look like shit either. There is a difference between living up to his expectations of looking like a slob in stained clothing and looking stunning, albeit big.

Besides, who's to say that a large woman looking spectacular wouldn't pique your interest? Just because you don't normally find a type attractive doesn't mean that there isn't going to be one that catches your eye someday.

And the pig references are old. Try something new.

buffpuff said...

Oops, so sorry, Anonymous above. I had you confused with another troll whose views and modus operandi are so very similar to yours you could've been separated at birth!

Actually I think I've answered your point quite well enough and in some detail during the course of my recent posts. If you really don't get it, then c'est la vie.

With regard to your last question: for myself, I enjoy clothes, make-up, shoes and trinkets because I'm a shamelessly girly kinda girl and that's what we do, regardless of size. I make the best of what God gave me because I respect myself, fat and all, and I know it shows. If you want to know why losing weight is not on my personal agenda, (not a matter we were actually discussing here incidentally), then I suggest you refer to the Craigslist thread, where you will also find a veritable panoply of dumb, ugly generalisations about fat to take comfort in.

Now run along, there's a dear.

Anonymous said...

buffpuff.. tut, tut, such hostility! Pray tell, does the angry shrill fat woman actually have a significant other in her life? Or is all this philosophizing merely hypothetical?

buffpuff said...

And that is relevant because..?

buffpuff said...

Oh what the hell – I'll answer that myself. It's a cheap, (almost adolescent-girlishly) spiteful and wholly unimaginative diversionary tactic which fails to disguise the fact you can't think of anything else to fuel your puny argument. (Why bother with your appearance when your fat automatically renders you unattractive to me?)

If you have nothing of value or relevance to add to what is actually being discussed on this thread, go suck your honey's toes, assuming you have one. My love life, (which has never affected my personal politics one way or another), is not up for discussion.

Anonymous said...

Buffpuff - this defensive side of you is quite unbecoming: I think angry works better for you as a personal theme..

My whole point is that you have a fundamental misconception regarding how men's minds work. Stop - I'll qualify that by "most", no need to go off on a tirade about how I could not possibly speak for every human male out there..

So put your money where your mouth is. I'm in a great relationship, have been for 10+ years. If you know so much, how about letting all of us know where your profound sociological insights have gotten you as far as romance goes?

Anonymous said...

I agree that her love life isn't really relevant.

She's not saying this guy will necessarily be attracted to the girl; she's saying he MIGHT respect her more if she looks put together.

But then again, if he's the kind of guy to respect someone more because of their clothes, he'd probably also be the kind of guy to put a high value on appearance, making the fact that she's fat an unforgiveable fault in his eyes. I really think he won't care if she's dressed nicely etc and will just laugh at her for trying to look good.

Sometimes if you're fat, you can't win. If you're fat and slobby, you're pathetic. If you're fat and dressed nicely, then you're trying too hard, you're desperate, and people say things like "Who does she think she is? Does she really think she looks cute?"

Buffpuff's argument rests on the opinion that this guy MUST value appearance somewhat (as we all do). If that's really the case though, isn't it arguable that men care more about a woman's body than her clothes?
I mean I'm sure 99.9999% of men would rather be with a supermodel with horrible fashion sense than a fat woman who dressed wonderfully (if they consider fat bad, and I'm not saying all men do, but this one does).

So in the end, I think the fact that this girl is fat would be more important to this guy than what she is wearing.

littlem said...

Anon(s), Buff made her point here

"I opined that a confident, relaxed, well-turned out fat woman commands more RESPECT than one who fulfills the stereotype. Last time I checked, respect was an entirely different kettle of fish to rampant, unbridled, what-am-I-doing-dating-this-thin-woman?, chubby-chasing LUST" (emphases mine)

and you still insist on conflating the two concepts.

I'm not going to take a player's seat at this argument table (Buff is way better at this than I).

I'm just going to say that with respect to RESPECT (referencing one of your earlier posts), if you don't think Queen Latifah is a serious Hollywood player, you must have missed her 26 or so movies, her TV series, and her Golden Globe nomination, all of which, combined with her Cover Girl endorsement (partly in service, I would guess, of her recognition of the relevance IMAGE and RESPECT have to getting things done in H-wood) only serve to underscore Buff's point.

That is all.

buffpuff said...

...I would guess, of her recognition of the relevance IMAGE and RESPECT have to getting things done in H-wood

Why thank you, Littlem, for the deft use of your hammer on the nail, as always and for outlining again the distinction between getting on with and getting off with.

So, just-your-average-typical-bloke-Anonymous, an on-topic question for you:-

If you moved in such circles and found yourself in the company of Queen Latifah in a social situation would you dismiss her on a social basis on the grounds of her size? And, if not, why not?

And please, kindly stick to the point, Frankly if you persist in fixating on sex and whether or not I'm romantically involved, folk might start thinking the gentleman protesteth just a tad too much.

buffpuff said...

(Littlem, I just found your post about rhubarb and writing on the KFC Famous Bowls thread, (and can I just say eeeurgh! to the KFC thing in general?). I found an email address for you on another site and have tried to contact you but, for some reason, the Mailer Daemon keeps bouncing all my attempts back to me. If you'd like to get in touch, you can find mine on Big Fat Blog).

Anonymous said...

The truth is, he has a right to think what he wants. And you have a right not to meet him.

He is being truthful, and protecting himself from pain, by making sure that his girlfriend doesn't get fat. You are protecting yourself from pain, by not meeting him and potentially getting into a fight.

His way of thinking is perfectly natural, and he's entitled to think it. You way of thinking is perfectly natural, and you are entitled to think it.

You're both wrong, and you're both right.

The disturbing thing, is the amount of women on here whining that ONLY they are right, and that no one should be nasty to them because they are fat.

Well sorry, but that's life. People categorise others on differences and similarities, whether negative or positive.

Being unhealthy is a negative difference. Negative factors aren't normally an attractive feature in a mate.

That's the reason why you don't all want to jump into bed with a man who has bad breath, and 3 tropical skin diseases.

"Because it's okay for me to judge myself and hate myself for being fat...but, it's not okay for him to."

That's where you are wrong, it is OK for him to think that. There will be countless things that you judge to be negative factors in people, that you will categorise them for. He is doing the same thing to you.

There isn't a single person on earth that doesn't judge others, for their negative traits.

buffpuff said...

Anon above, you make some valid points which you present in a rational and thoughtful manner.

Of course we all make judgements based on what we perceive as negative traits in others – whether they be dogbreath, miserliness, a laugh like a mad scientist in a horror film or a penchant for loud novelty ties. However rarely is fat taken at face value in western society (i.e. a simple physical characteristic) – mainly because, for the last half-century, it has been actively promoted as being indicative of a mindboggling array of personality faults, usually by those who stand to profit from doing so.

Your own assertion that, "Being unhealthy is a negative difference", equates fat and ill health by default. And, while I'm not necessarily accusing you of doing this, ill health is invariably the prejudice evoked to justify, (often quite virulent), outpourings of fat hatred on blogs such as this. It's also a red herring – and not just because many fat people do practice a healthy lifestyle.

Picture this: a guy meets a babe with supermodel proportions. A well-meaning friend says, "you don't want to go out with her. She's got hypertension". How likely is that to stop him, do you suppose? Yet, according to your logic, it should.

We all have far less conrol over our bodies than the average fat-basher would like to admit, let alone anybone else's; and thinness is no guarantee of good health. I've known thin diabetics, thin folk with high cholesterol and blood pressure, post-viral fatigue syndrome, depression, fibromyalgia, thyroid problems, blood disorders, Crohn's Disease as well as various forms of cancer. Some of these people had self-destructive habits, some of them inherited certain predispositions from their families...and some of them just had shit happen to 'em because it does.

Personally I don't think Laura's boyfriend is "protecting himself from pain by making sure his girlfriend doesn't get fat". He's more likely to be saving himself from perceived embarrassment among the peers who share his value stystem. And no amount of nagging a neurotic woman with poor self-image could stop her from getting Hashimoto's Syndrome should the fickle finger of fate decide to zap her. Granted it could cause her to develop an eating disorder, assuming she hasn't already got one. What he's doing may be understandable, given the way fat is demonised in society, but it is neither justifiable nor healthy.

The disturbing thing, is the amount of women on here whining that ONLY they are right, and that no one should be nasty to them because they are fat.

Um - hello - this is a blog about the experience of being fat in a world where fat is frequently misrepresented; one which is often vicious and discriminatory. While it doesn't preclude anyone else from pitching in with their opinions, it could be viewed as something of a safe haven for the majority who post on it. I think a certain amount of what you term "whining" is perfectly in order, particularly since the site frequently attracts trolls who deliberately go out of their way to insult us.

Anonymous said...

Everyone knows thin and fat people with this or that. The question is, who is it more likely to happen to? I know that one can be fat and also perfectly healthy, but one can also be in a family with a plethora of genetically inherited diseases, and still avoid them and be healthy. My point is that being fat increases your risk, just as coming from a family where many members have had cancer increases your risk.

If you eat too much and gain weight to the point that your joints actually have problems, how can one argue that this is healthy?

Note that I'm not saying there aren't thin people who eat a lot and don't exercise. But they aren't eating TOO much. Otherwise, their body would be storing excess fat.

I'm also not saying that all fat people simply eat too much. But these specific girls on this blog definitely eat a LOT of fast food, and caloric intake is probably the main reason they are so heavy.

Anonymous said...

Hahahahaha

He sounds human. Exactly the way any normal, healthy, self respecting human thinks.

Of course that logic gets lost in land of the open fridge binge buffet.

buffpuff said...

It may surprise you to learn, anonymous above, that I too consider myself to be a normal, self-respecting human being, (though fat), and all you'll find in my fridge are fruit, vegetables, soya & linseed bread, low-fat cheese, semi-skimmed milk, free range eggs, unsalted butter, (no transfats for me), and some hummus.

What do you keep in yours, you impudent horse's arse?

Anonymous said...

buffpuff : It may suprise you to learn, I was making vast sweeping generalisations about the general populace's views and beliefs towards fat people, coupled with the fact that many overweight people do self medicate using food.


If you don't have an intimate relationship with food then I congratulate you, my post has no relevance to you.



You get off on trolling the trolls, dont you? :p