Monday, March 27, 2006

A Fatastical Experiment ... Would You Ever?

We here at Fatty McBlog occasionally like to embark on pseudo-scientific experiments to see if we can shed some light on living life as a fat girl. Obviously there is much emphasis on the word pseudo...

We posted an ad on New York's Craigslist which asked men to respond about their feelings regarding dating a fat woman.

Our ad, entitled Would You Ever? said: "Would you ever date a fat girl? What if she were "perfect" in every other way except she carries a lot of extra weight? What if she were intelligent and funny and interesting and pretty and had a great job, but she was a bbw (and not just a little chubby)? Would you ever consider dating her? Would you rather date someone really ugly or really fat? If you wouldn't date a fat girl, please include your reasons. I am interested in this topic since an overweight friend of mine recently told me that none of the men she knows treat her like a "woman" aka they don't find her attractive and none of them ever think of her in a romantic way. Please send me your honest responses. Thanks! "

I found that many people will be more honest in this medium because it is sort of anonymous and you can respond with what you really think without any repercussions. I think the answers we received are interesting because I am fascinated with how people think about the overweight in this society. And it's sort of shocking how many people responded to this ad in the first few minutes of it being up...I guess there are a lot of men who want to weigh in on the subject.

These are some of the responses we have received, hope they are enlightening (about how men who read CL ads view fat women) or at least entertaining (I didn't correct any grammer or spelling mistakes):

- because fat girls are ugly?

- to me, it's un-attractive and indicates a hellava lot of selfish,self centered type of behavior.

- well sweetie there are men you are chubby chasers and enjoy a cubby woman , But theres also and its the majority of men who feel cubby/fat women are like a motor scooter they 're fun to ride till your friends see you on one :) horrible I know but come on you did chuckle enjoy and keep smiling !

- I have dated an overweight girl. I have dated an ugly girl. It wasn't that bad. The ugly thing, that's just skin deep. However, the overweight thing is a matter of health.

- Well I would get a nice Blow job from her cause I know that she givesreally good head.....But not date her ........Maybe take her home froma bar and let her do it!!

- maybe b/c when she takes her clothes off and we see all he cellulite dripping from her bod it will make us throw up. and if your desperate enough to put up with that then we would never want her to be seen by our friends and family who might think she is gross too......thats my honest opinion

- uhhmm, I think you know the answer to this one. Why don't you date short guys? There has to be some physical, sexual attraction. I think you're wrong anyway. Some guys see fat girls as an easy score.

- Sexuality and attraction go hand in hand with dating. Someone who is perfect in every way, except for being visually and sexually appealing, would make a wonderful friend. But, since I am not in the least bit attracted to seriously overweight women, I would never date one.

- Attraction is not a choice..

- thats because the men she knows are very chidish,there is nothing wrong with a fat woman is the person inside that matters. life is to short to judge people on the way they look is pretty sad if you ask me.

- i would definitely date a fat girl not as easily as an ugly girl. i think people do give characteristics (non physical) a big role, sometimes the 'big momma' complex, the more cushion for the pushin, yet for being ugly (which is harsh to say) is definitely becoming the 'new' discrimination. deep down inside i think all men have even fantasized about a fat girl...look a the fetish world there is even a fat XXX mag out there...

- Hey there, I love BBW’s if they have a cute face and proportional weight distribution. Tell your friend that there are events exclusively for BBW’s and men that love them all over the city, just search the internet.

- I've dated fat girls but there are some issues.. they are too overweight or out of shape to make love with and that them being fatis not the issue but it's a reflection of themselves (unable to takecare of themselves, etc.) One of the ones I've gone out with had amessy apt, never cleaned the coffee maker... that kind of thing (I rarely see it with thin girls)

- I’ve always looked beyond the exterior and dated the person, not the body.

- It's the friend complex. You want your friends to think yourgirlfriend is hot or cute. Would you date a guy if all your friendstold you he was ugly? You might, but it would definitely put someunwanted strain on things right? I dated a larger girl once and yeahmy friends cracked jokes, but that's not why I ended it.Now, personally I like to work out and take care of myself, so I'd liketo date a girl who does the same. It's a common interest thing. I'dwant to do active things with the girl I date. It's the same reasonwhy I won't date someone who's supermodel-thin but won't do anythingbecause she might break a nail.

- cuz chubby girls stink down there

- hmm all pussy tastes the same i date both

- It's a simple matter of attraction - 98% of guys are not attracted to big women. You can't deny men love hot chicks...

- I'm 23 and for me it doesn't really make much of a difference. I'll date any kind of girl if we get along. For guys in general, they want to keep their image in check. They can't be seen dating a "fat" chick because he'll be abused to no end by his friends. Besides that, the "fat" chick doesn't fit the general stereotype of what kind of girls guys like. Hopefully that helped out. Anything further you'd like to know, feel free to email me.

- they are insecure and they give off that vibe soon as a thin attractive women comes into the room. Fat girls always assume we are comparing looks and shit. We (men)don't compare, that is down right shitty and not cool, no one like to be compared to an one else. most fat girls are warm fun and even attractive when you get past the whole insecurity thing.

- why don't women date short guys? usually, tall is the first thing they mention in their list of qualifications -- tall, dark and handsome. statistically, there just aren't enough tall guys to meet all that demand. women might be able to get slimmer, but guys can never get taller... those are the breaks.

- I would date any type of girl as long as she can stimulate my mind and there has to be chemistry. Looks wise, I’ve dated almost every kind of girl there is. I am really leaning more toward genuine people who can carry a conversation.

- honestly i would not date a fat girleven if she is 23even though im in my late 40sbecause her being fat demonstrates that she doesnt respect herselfand if she doesnt respect herself, i know that down the road that she wont respect meand second, it just isnt attractive from an evolutionary standpoint...the fat people move slower and are more sedentary and more likely to be attacked and injuredwhich is why there is a very natural aversion to fat people..men or women...women might have it harder because men are attracted to the hourglass figure..which gets them turned on..whereas women are more likely to accepta heavier man since they look more for security and power and money which even a fat man can do...my advice is for her to get off her fat ass, dont expect men or quality men to want to walk with her on the street or even in private if she doesnt start to respect herself...its easy..put on her sweats..and do cardio...30 or 40min..once or even twice a day..eat 3 normal meals and 3 snacks...DONT EAT JUNK FOOD DONT EAT JUNK FOOD..the last thing a man or woman can stand is looking at a fat man or woman eat..it is not PRETTY!

- Well I think every man is different and exactly howfat is fat? Some guys think its 130lbs and some thinkits 190lbs. But pretty much if you are over 220 thenthat is defiantly fat!Now most foreign men for the Middle East like theirwomen bigger, some black guys too especially blackguys form Africa, so may be if you know what you arelooking for it will make it easier to find.

- I would so date a big girl. I would rather datesomeone who is big with flesh on their bones and softcurvy corners than date someone who is skinny. Now ifyour are 5 7 and 150 lbs you are skinny for me. I would date someone who is cute and verychubby over someone cute and thin. Infact I have neverdated anyone who is thin or skinny. I am simply notattracted to them. I believe bigger girls have more to offer. Lol..

- I would and have dated girls who are bbw's, above avg, are more well roundedthan most. Though it's hard to find one that can balance sex appeal andconfidence with all the other beautiful traits they possess.Most were intelligent, funny, interesting, pretty, had a great job, greatlovers, and great to be with...but most also lacked confidence, did notcarry themselves as high as they could, always said but made no efforts tobetter themselves even with my help and motivation. In short they lacked sexappeal. A woman is a woman, but unless she feels like a woman most men will nottreat her like one. Do it for yourself first, then when you find someonethat can and will appreciate you for you, be a woman to that man. Theromance will follow.

- I just recently met a woman who responded to my ad on CL. The first time I called her we wound up talking for over three hours.The next day when I met her to go to a dinner party with her I met a very pretty,and cute woman.She is very well rounded,and I've never been with a woman as such.But,to tell you the truth I already like her very much.And her roundness does'nt make me like her any less.In fact I feel it would be very comfortable sleeping with her.
I may not be like most guys,but to me a persons personality is what makes a person beautiful.
Have a wounderful day.

- First, many men may find your friend unattractive...and that's okay. However, she really only needs to find one man (I assume) who will dig her. I'd offer that her perception might be skewed a bit by her own self esteem. Personally, a woman either is sexy and charismatic or she's not.If she's funny and she's good in bed...there are ALWAYS quality guys (not assholes) who will want to get to know her.I am not a physically attractive man. I'm tall with broad shoulders and built like a football lineman. However, I have small chin and my face is, well...I'm no Brad Pitt. Plus a 4.5" dick. However, I REALLY like women. I like everything about them...and it shows. It's all about confidence.Are there women who will stop dating me because I have a small dick? Sure. Just like there are guys who won't date a fat chick. I'm VERY good with my tongue and I'm sure your friend has talent and assets that make her attractive.For a long term relationship...I would have concerns about her health and mobility.

- Because it's repulsive. "Really" ugly is also repulsive. But, there's more latitude as to face than as to obesity. Obese is obese, flab is flab, girth is girth, -- even in the dark it's repulsive.
... and in 99% of the cases, it's voluntary. A woman has little control over her face, but she can take care of her weight -- diet, exercise, etc. So, if she's really fat, she doesn't care about her health or appearance, or pleasing her boyfriend. She stuffs her mouth to satisfy some neurotic desire other than normal hunger for food and nutrition. So. it goes to issues of character too -- the fat girl has a character defect. Of course men are excited by the visual and the svelte woman is more beautiful. But, it's not just that a woman in the normal weight range excites more lust.

- no


So, there it is, the responses we received in a little over 45 minutes on Craigslist. I had to take it down because this post is really really long (our longest ever!). What do you guys think about what they had to say? Were you surprised, amused, saddened, or could you care less?

451 comments:

1 – 200 of 451   Newer›   Newest»
Jin said...

That is possibly the best thing I have ever read! YOU NEED YOUR OWN FORUM IN THE MEDIA - LIKE A MAGAZINE ARTICLE OR A TV SHOW!

Anonymous said...

I liked "But theres also and its the majority of men who feel cubby/fat women are like a motor scooter they 're fun to ride till your friends see you on one :) " the scooter thing was funny, but so is the word "Cubby"!

Anonymous said...

That's why I'm a fat lesbian.

Dani said...

That made me laugh and cry at the same time.

Sadly, some of things they said were true though very hurtful. SOme of this things they said were just stupid.

I am torn between laughing and crying and going on a diet and stuffing my face.

I am glad I read it though. Thanks for sharing.

Anonymous said...

Im not really worried about any of the remarks...most of those guys can't even spell.
I think that shows a window into their minds and intellect.

Starla said...

I think that was a great idea if you wanted to get a feel for a small majority of people's opinions.

It definitely gives you an idea of how certain people think.

But I will have to agree with a couple of the commenters, you can't help attraction.

I mean, I know some of the guys who commented wouldn't date a fat girl simply because of a certain status that they felt they had to uphold, regardless of how attracted they may be to fat women. But for other people, it really is just a matter of attraction.

Me for instance, back when I was dating, didn't go out with redheads. None of them ever attracted me.

Anonymous said...

I'd hafta say at least 20% of men prefer chunky/thick/fat girls over lean females nowdays...

FUCK SOME OF THESE RESPONSES, foreal! lol

KEEP ON...

Nana said...

I found that amusing and sad at the same time. I'm kind of interested though because I'm a big girl and I have a lot of friends who are big girls and very rarely have any of us had a problem getting dates. Maybe we are dating the 20% of the population who love a big girl. Oh well, if someone can't see past the way I look, they are idiots and I can't deal with idiotic people.

Anonymous said...

After reading that I got this horrible sinking feeling that I'll never find anyone who is fully accepting of my size.

Woe...

Midknyt said...

I've got to say it surprises me how many people assumed that being fat showed that we had no respect for ourselves, and that all we needed to do was actually exercise. I workout seven days a week, but still weigh 240. Ever hear of genetics?

I also really liked the one comment that said: "it just isnt attractive from an evolutionary standpoint...the fat people move slower and are more sedentary and more likely to be attacked and injured." What? I'm more likely to be attacked? Where the hell did that come from? And, dumb ass, from an evolutionary standpoint, fat is a sign of better survival, as we can live through the famine a lot longer than you can. Dork.

Most of the comments are sad, but I think it's a good representation of how men think.

And how they don't know how to spell check.

randomfatgirl said...

These responses made me sad. And disgusted. And seriously pissed. But it was a reality check.

Undine's Soul said...

I cannot believe how shallow men are!!! So disappointing.

Stephanie said...

I think none of it was surprising except to find out that some men find 130 pounds to be fat. What the hell was that? I think that guys are totally clueless!!! Lots of insight I guess.

You girls should have your own show!!!

Anonymous said...

I was really surprised at the number of responses that assumed fat women (and men, presumably) are lazy and dirty. Particularly the bloke who said (more or less) that thin women are never as dirty as fat women. I'm surprised that fat is still seen as an indication of character flaws (selfish, dirty, smelly, stupid, etc etc) especially when as many as 1 in 5 people in the developed world is overweight.

Loving your blog, BTW!

littlem said...

Not surprised. What we're REALLY dealing with is finding a man sufficiently secure NOT to be obsessed with what his friends/employers/etc. think, to the exclusion of what he thinks.

(For edification, read/see Neil LaBute's "Fat Pig" -cruel characterizations, but I'd rather see people for what they are and know what I'm dealing with.)

Now, in hopes of making us feel better, I just HAVE to fire a couple rounds in some of these:

"- honestly i would not date a fat girleven if she is 23even though im in my late 40sbecause her being fat demonstrates that she doesnt respect herselfand if she doesnt respect herself, i know that down the road that she wont respect meand second, it just isnt attractive from an evolutionary standpoint..."

Aaaaaaaaaaahahahaha. From an evolutionary standpoint, judging on the basis of sentence completion ability, this guy's genes should be ORDERED to step out of the pool.

Paraphrasing Stephanie - "130 lbs fat - I think that guys are totally clueless!!!"

True. In part, comes from all of us lying about our weight, but guys have VERY FEW accurate perception skills when it comes to this.

So IMO we should continue to lie and confuse them further; perhaps at some point that will help them understand that ACTUAL WEIGHT matters less than they think. :D

"women might be able to get slimmer, but guys can never get taller"

Now officially FALSE. Just like we have WLS over here (although I wouldn't have it unless my condition was life-threatening), they have surgeons (at least in China) who will put pins in your legs so you can be taller (since they've swallowed the Western ideals of height dominance).

Short men whining now have the choice to suffer the kind of hell (surgical and otherwise) that we put ourselves through in part to be appealing to them, or SHUT THE **** UP!!!!
Hee.

"One of the ones I've gone out with had amessy apt, never cleaned the coffee maker... that kind of thing (I rarely see it with thin girls)"

THIS guy has clearly never been to a MAN's house, thin or fat -- have you SEEN some of their coffee-makers?

As for the guys speaking about how bigger women are preferred in other countries, look a little deeper and you will see the same competition - it's just about the men wanting the women to be LARGER than other mens' wives, as opposed to SMALLER. The common thread there is that it's still about the world's perception of THEM.

What we are looking at is men who are obsessed with HOW THEIR PARTNERS REFLECT ON THEM, rather than the relationship itself. Selfish, self-absorbed. What we are LOOKING for (admittedly harder to find, but oh so well worth it) are men who are sufficiently worldly, generous and sophisticated to see BEYOND THEMSELVES. (Particularly given the fact that they're in a RELATIONSHIP. D'oh!)

Sorry 'bout the book-length post, people; I just needed to point and laugh to shake off those grislier Craigslist vibes.

Carry on.

S. said...

I couldn't care less. I didn't read the whole thing, but I did skim and I wonder what exactly did this all prove anyway? We all know there are plenty of guys who wouldn't date a fat girl. It's a fact. If they don't want you, you shouldn't want them, no matter what the reason.
And really, none of these guys sound like blue ribbon prizes themselves.

Hey! Fat Girl! said...

I love the guy who says that, in his travels in the dating pool, only fatties never clean their apartment or coffee maker.

That cracked me up the most out of all these comments. It just shows how ridiculous CL posters really are. And why whenever there's a debate on fat chicks do three or four of them throw in the "why won't you date short guys?" line? That crap is all over MY city's CL, too! And I'm thousands of miles away from NY.

Although I DO think it's sad that the majority of the people who responded believe that a woman's weight is directly based on how lazy she is, that she disrespects herself, and that she's good for nothing, but I think it's because they just don't have the intelligence to think otherwise. And what's sad about that is that there's no convincing these people that some of us are fat because that's the way we are. Just like that ugly girl over there is ugly because she's ugly. And that's that.

toni said...

I wasn't all that surprised by the responses except for the ones that were positive toward fluffy girls. Perhaps there's hope yet that not everyone is incapable of thinking and feeling for themselves rather than allowing societal expectations to shape their opinions.

Anonymous said...

This was illuminating-sort of. On the other hand, it just reinforced what I already feared: that many men are quite prejudiced and nearly all of the ones who responded have totally bought the presistent mythology that a woman is fat:
1. Of her own volition
2. Because she's lazy
3. Because she "doesn't respect herself."

It is the mythology--the one repeated endlessly and often subtly in mainstream culture--that is the problem. This needs to be addressed as emphatically and persistently as well, until everyone, even men who regard fat as "repulsive" come to understand it IS a myth, and that myths are a means of CONTROL.

In specific reference to Number 3, when a man says "she doesn't respect herself," what he really means is: "she doesn't respect ME enough to bow down to what I, in my juvenile gimme, gimme, gimme state of being, WANT her to be."

Men have a right to their preference. However, they need to understand that fat women who accept themselves are actually incredibly strong (and hence, intimidating?), and above all that we're not looking for an "excuse" to be fat. We don't need one. There's nothing wrong with it.

Doc said...

Sigh. First off - approximately one third of the dating population could be considered 'perfect' at any given time. There's a base level of intelligence, wit, commonality of interests and ambition the gal needs - beyond that it's sex and timing. Anyone you'd ever want to date need never choose between a semi-perfect thin girl and an-otherwise perfect big gal. Folks who think like that meet one girl a month and tend to stalk.
Also, while fat gals may not be messier than thin gals, messy gals are almost always fat. It's the sizable percentage of fat gals who are only fat because of constant eating/self-destructive-habits that get all the attention for obvious reasons - they're loud, they smell, they bitch, they're easy. Even if they're only a tiny percentage of fat America, they're the most visible. Blame them, not the men who've every reason to assume certain characteristics based on brief experiences. I'm sure most big gals are clean, temperate and hard-working; not the type you'll tell a story about the next day and that's the problem.
More importantly, it's really not about the partner's attractiveness reflecting poorly upon the man (though that shouldn't be ignored), it's that society is so profoundly anti-fat that larger women are inevitably sad or defensive. Or psychotic, I suppose. They may argue the point, they may genuinely believe themselves the skinny girl's equal in flirtations, but, at best, that only means they truly do not understand the powers of women who've always taken their beauty for granted. I've battled against this vainly for years, and, when it comes down to a relationship, I'll take the sheer ebullience, earned confidence, joie de vivre or the conventionally-attractive gal over one fitting my natural tastes any day. And, yes, that means choosing personality over base sexual desire. And that's superficial?
-------- Um, this research does only refer to the 21-34 club-hopping, drink-friendly urban gal set. I have high hopes that middle age will even things out.

Laura said...

I wonder what response you would get on CL to "Would you date a fat guy?" or a "guy with a small, short penis?"

I think it is sad that it comes down to fat that keeps men and women lonely. What if your soul mate is behind that fat? What a shame.

Laura
San Francisco

**Love the blog**

Anonymous said...

I'm currently in a marriage with a man who is more concerned about what his friends think about me, as opposed to what he thinks about me himself. He and I have known each other for the past eight years, and until recently, my outward appearance meant nothing to him. Once he started making friends with the typical male asshole, he began to become like them.

I honestly do believe that a lot of mens opinions are based on not what they think for themselves, but what others think for them. Their friends, family, employers, etc. play a huge role in their thoughts. My own marriage has actually been quite the learning experience for me, despite the heartache, as I've learnt ever so much about rebellion and the nature of the "typical" man.

And, just for my own defense - I exercise daily, including running/walking, eat extremely healthy, and I'm quite clean. :)

The Fat Girl said...

the fat girl has a character defect

That stuck out for me.

I thought it was interesting that there were two strains of responses: the people who seemed to understand that they were upholding their own images by dating thinner women, and the people who asserted that they find fat women "repulsive" or some variant thereof.

I think the commenter who mentioned that our antifat culture beats fat women down—which has an effect on personality!—has a great point. People are attracted to confidence (and rightly so), and it's a whole lot harder to be confident as a fat woman.

Anonymous said...

I thought this needed to be said:

Many of your comments denigrated men who do not want to date fat women because of the way in which it will impact their relationships with others around them. It is very true that looks are likely not the basis of any positive or healthy relationship. However, I think it is somewhat unfair to label these men as simply being horribly selfish, self-absorbed,

As humans we are inherently social creatures. How we are perceived by others directly affects our happiness and well-being. Even the most stolid and virtuous people feel society's pressure and respond to it. The way these men feel is just a natural, if a bit extreme in some cases, reaction to an integral part of our human condition.

This being said, of course I agree that some of the responses were poorly spelled, lacked appropriate syntax, and/or were unnecessarily hurtful. Still, I think that one has to cut people a bit of slack for wanting to please those around them - after all, I don't think that any of us can say we are completely innocent of such impulses and I don't think that we should be.

p.s. On a lighter note, that comment about thin girls not being messy made me crack up , because I'm pretty average-sized and my apartment is a war zone/biohazard.

Anonymous said...

One thing that really struck me was "So, if she's really fat, she doesn't care about her health or appearance, or pleasing her boyfriend."
Why should the woman care so much about "pleasing her boyfriend" in this context? Yes, I'd want to do things that my boyfriend likes (ex. I'm not a sports fan, but if my boyfriend was I'd go to games with him as long as he did something I like to do) but "pleasing" just has such a negative connotation. And what if the woman likes indulging in rich foods? Shouldn't the man then "allow" this to happen to please his girlfriend?

I have to say though, from what I've seen of guys on craigslist they're not usually the ideal men or men you'd want to date, they're just interested in hookups. Granted, that might just be 20-30 year old men in NYC, but that's my experience.

Bellybabe. said...

One thing that really leaps out is the idea of overweight people being Lazy, careless, selfish etc. Even in the comments it comes up - don't eat junk food.

What about the people that CAN'T help it? It pisses me off that a woman (or man) with a medical reason for being overweight is cast in the same light as a woman who has decided the whole purpose of life is to eat as many hamburgers as her frame will hold. Yes, slothfulness, greed, a lack of care in food and personal habits - those things are unattractive in men OR women.

I personally have insulin resistance, and one thing that does is give me a belly as well as an overall heavier frame. I don't eat junk food, I get decent amounts of excersize, and I take my drugs but I'm probably never going to shift the belly. Does that make me lazy, stupid and careless?

I'll finish up with something my boyfriend said to me when I was having a self esteem plunge: Beauty is not marked by how close to the bones your skin is. Beauty is your heart and soul.

My love to the fabulous big girls and boys out there. It's an uphill battle somedays.

Anonymous said...

Wow.

I have been fat. I have been thin. Now I'm just average-sized.

At all of theses sizes, my apartment was SPOTLESS. Give me a freaking break.

I think it just comes down to preference. While quite large, I dated a triathlete who was very fit - and very into me, all the same. Great attraction, good chemistry.

I also dated an asshole who got me into bed, THEN called me a fatty after we slept together.

Some people are just assholes. If any of these guys had been able to express their opinions with proper grammar, punctuation, or spelling, I might give their arguments some weight. None of them sound terribly educated or intelligent to me, and I find THAT unattractive.

mainja said...

wow. that was depressing. *sigh*

Anonymous said...

ooh. that was completely what I expected to see! I have watched the R&R at CL and know the exact formula. The whole Fat chicks= dumb, ugly, lazy, smelly, unclean, and have low self esteem ideas come first. Then there are the ones who will defend and love women who are fat--they are mature and undestand that for a lasting relationship a person has to have personality as well as an attraction and that fat doesn't necessarily negate an attraction. Finally the whole, I have a small penis, I am short confessions and why nobody cares about me boo-hoo off topic stuff. Finally there is a peppering of a few stupid juvenile responses probably written by the same person over and over again.

Personally, as a fat chick myself I have had no problem attracting people. I am married and have to knock 'em back with a stick sometimes. Sure there are a fair amount of people out there who wouldn't touch me but the great majority of those people I wouldn't touch, ew! The one thing that I agree with is that confidence and attitude helps in any situation. Any girl can be unattractive if she doesn't feel good about herself. I have known plenty of very attractive thin women who have no problem attracting people but can't keep 'em around because they mope around feeling bad about themselves.

Fat feels good, espescially in the dark. It is soft, smooth, velvety and luxurious. For many Fat is something impossible to get rid of no matter how fit or little a person eats. The population as a whole is getting heavier while the drive to be thin gets stronger. Even if I could be as thin as Callista Flockheart I wouldn't ever want to!! I mean, I would miss my squishyness.

Oh, and short guys can be HOT!!!

Anonymous said...

Sorry guys, I AM AN ACTUAL CURVY WOMAN.

I'm not fat at all but I am very, very curvy. When I put that in a personal ad almost every guy wrote me asking (in a round about way if they were nice-haha) how much of a "BBW" I was. Was I "weight proportonate"? Which I guess means fat but with big tits? Who the hell knows.

I'm not sure what the hell is going on in the personal ad world, but it's warped anyway.

I explained I am not a BBW. I am 5 feet tall and wear a 32 DDD bra (which has been my size since age 14). I have a large, squshy ass and I weigh 108 pounds.

In this stupid world you are either fat or stick thin.

I HAVE curves. I am soft, I am squishy, I am ROUND. But guess what? I am not fat at all. I run and bike and eat mainly vegetarian.

Most of them were assholes anyway. I went out with about 4 guys and they said they all expected an obese woman since I said I was curvy. I guess I am supposed to say I am THIN and deny my own curves.

Whatever. Personal ads suck.

Anonymous said...

You can replace bbw with any other type of overt physical or social characteristic (black, asian, white, dwarf, mentally retarded, old, insane, drug user, alcoholic, etc); you will end up with a similar set of responses because humans are prejudicial. Your experiment proves nothing.

Iva K said...

These guys cannot spell and mostly cannot express themselves. They sound as if they are 20-25. They sound about as interesting as uncooked turnips. I think they lack the ability to analyze themselves or their feelings.

neca said...

I take this as further evidence that conforming to a certain physical crietria isn't about beauty - it's about obedience to the patriarchy.

Meira Voirdire said...

heh . . .pretty much what I expected as far as sentiment goes. However, I am astonished at how badly they write. I know the internet is believed to have led to some lax grammer/spelling, but this was ridiculous.

Bowling with No Panties said...

I'm not surprised at all. I've been a bit reader of the CL NY R&R section for a few years and it's pretty much the sentiment there.

Once in a while a troll will start something about how any woman over a size 6 is fat and then tons of angry size 8 chicks write back screaming how they're not fat and the guy has a small penis.

It's anonymous and people write horrific things about fat people, not to mention anybody else who isn't white or male. I think it's one or two very disturbed individuals. Some of the racism on there has made me want to seriously projectile vomit onto my desk.

Back to the fat thing, though...as a fat woman who has been fat since I was about 20, I have can write a book about the wide variety of BLIND personal ad or internet ad dates I have had that have been good, bad, and utterly heinous. Some people saw me as fat first and dismissed the rest of my beauty, talent, and overall fabulocity within seconds.

I had rejected men that I had not had chemistry with to be faced with their outrage...like how could I possibly reject THEM...because, like, I'm FAT! I'm supposed to be desperate and take what I can get!

The biggest thing I learned was that there are some people that aren't as affected by societal standards OR will find some aspect of my personality so irresistible that they don't CARE that I am fat and still squire me about like a prized hen. Most of these guys were older, by the way, and less concerned with HOTNESS and more concerned about character and compatibility.

Even outside of the dating forum, people seem surprised to see that I'm smart, funny, and YES athletic. I'm not some dumbass sitting around eating potato chips and watching Lifetime HOWEVER!!!!! If that is what I DID like to do, goddamnit, I have the RIGHT to DO THAT TOO. We ALL do!

We have the right to live our lives as we see fit and without the scorn of strangers.

We have a lot of work to do people. Fat Predjudice is ignorant and co-signed by the AMA.

Christi Nielsen said...

Well this was quite entertaining. It didn't really offend me because it's not a surprise and because I have much more going on in my life than to worry about what men want. Men aren't the measure of my actions.

Sometimes I cringe when I see these kinds of questions thrown out because it just reinforces (to most men) that we are desperate to know what we can do/be in order to serve/please them.

littlem - my fav as usual! ;-)

Anonymous said...

The truth of the matter is, that everybody desires acceptance of some kind. People have feelings and get emotionally hurt when something contradicts with their self belief/image/etc.

The acceptance should not be on portraying images of obese/fat people in a positive light -- it should be on educating the general public to show tolerance and treat people fairly. While it is natural for people, myself included, to be slightly disgusted when I see a fat corpusle of a human being in an armless wheelchair, huffing down an aisle of a supermarket and asking me to reach for candy on the top shelf, I will still smile and do as asked, because I realize they are people, too. My innate feelings are supressed by my logic and that is the awareness we should strive to create.

Stacy said...

Hmmm. I'm still digesting, but I have to say that I'm not surprised by anything I read, except perhaps, that there were more positive comments then I thought there would be.

One of the posters wrote something interesting about breaking down the barriers of self-esteem issues that some fat women carry around with them. I have to agree with him there.

I am fat. I've always been fat except for a two and a half year period during which I was anorexic (not to mention suicidal and scorchingly bitchy). Coming back from that, accepting myself as a BBW, was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. There have been people, upon learning that I was anorexic, who have said: "Wow, I wish I had the willpower to do that!" Beyond being a stupid thing to say for the obvious reasons, the idea of willpower helping a diet along has always bothered me. There's no willpower involved in dieting. Dieting is the most sheep-like behavior you can indulge in today. Dieting is hearing people tell you there's something wrong with you, swallowing the message and then trying to change for others.

The hardest thing I had to do was accept myself and love myself as I am. That's the real willpower in today's world. There are so many lovely BBW out there, but many of them imagine a future in which they are thin, rather than loving their lives right now.

Since I've recovered from anorexia, and accepted myself for who I am, I get hit on more than ever. More than I ever did when I was a size zero. And the best part is: I don't even care, because I know it's not about that. It's about liking myself as I am, not as someone else sees me.

Stacy said...

Anonymous right above my previous post: you're kidding right? You're being sarcastic? I hope you are, because that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Anonymous said...

Stacy - why is it ridiculous? It's just an opinion. At least I don't go around making fun of fat people. If I don't find BBW attractive, I don't go around advertising my disgust for them. I treat people fairly and let people do what they want. Why should I have to make life any worse for someone who will have to deal with others not as accepting as myself?

If you don't care about any of this, then don't take my comment to heart.

Anonymous said...

p.s. On a lighter note, that comment about thin girls not being messy made me crack up , because I'm pretty average-sized and my apartment is a war zone/biohazard.

Now this is interesting. In the past I've been overweight. A couple of years ago I lost all the weight I needed to make it to my goal size. Not skinny by any means, just a healthy weight and fitness level.

I do find that, for me, my level of neatness and my level of "healthy living" (as I define by eating right and exercising) sometimes are tied together. When I've cleaned my apartment and all my chores are done on time I'm more motivated to eat a balanced meal and go running. If I come home from work and the place is a war zone I sometimes just give myself permission to park on the couch and graze myself to sleep.

Obviously I'm coming to no real conclusion here, but perhaps there is some kind of experiment I can run on myself to see how keeping the apartment neat for a month or so reflects in my diet and exercise. :B

Anonymous said...

someone above said this:

"We have the right to live our lives as we see fit and without the scorn of strangers."

Who are you, Bobby Brown?

I totally disagree.

Of course you have the right to do whatever you like with yourself and live your life as you see fit.

However, other people also have the right to say whatever the hell they want about you - it's called free speech.

Now, them doing this may be mean, hurtful, rude and a multitude of other bad things, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

~loveme~ said...

Surprised, no
Amused, yes
the shallowness of men (some not all) will never stop amazing me

Anonymous said...

"If she's funny and she's good in bed...there are ALWAYS quality guys (not assholes) who will want to get to know her."

...

Quality guys who'd find out that she was good in bed first, and then decide they wanted to get to know her? That's a funky-ass view of "quality guys (not assholes)"...

Anonymous said...

****Of course you have the right to do whatever you like with yourself and live your life as you see fit.

However, other people also have the right to say whatever the hell they want about you - it's called free speech.

Now, them doing this may be mean, hurtful, rude and a multitude of other bad things, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to do it.***

Of course people are "allowed" to say shitty judgemental ignorant close-minded things about fat people. I didn't say that nobody was allowed to Fat Bash, forgive me if you thought I was OPRRESSING your right to be a total asshole.

What I MEANT is that people have the right to live their lives, and it should be a SOCIAL FAUX PAS for people to yell "FATASS" out the window of a moving car at them, or for complete strangers to suggest to a pregnant plus sized woman in Target that they didn't carry plus sized maternity clothes because "what are the chances of a fat girl getting pregnant? Har har har."

Just as it's rude and LOW CLASS for someone to yell racial ephitets to a stranger in public, it should be the SAME for fat people.

Of course, you have the RIGHT to be a serious dickwad and do that if you MUST...but I think we should all come to an agreement that it's just wrong wrong wrong to do so. That it would cost you friends, dates, and would make your mother want to cry into her pillow over what a complete boob she gave birth to.

Anonymous said...

Stacy - Dieting is sheep-like? That's crap! If you're gonna say crap like that it's just as bad as people insulting you because you're fat. Just as being fat is not a character flaw, it is not something that adds to character! If want to decide to accept your body as fat then that's your choice but for god's sake don't insult people who are trying not to be fat. It's hipocritical to be mad that someone's judging fat people and in turn judge people trying to lose weight. That's shameful! And I agree with that annonymous post above yours, why would that be a joke? It wasn't insulting at all. I don't understand people who are all for body acceptance and expect everyone to see eye to eye. Whatever, I think all that is sheepish!


**"We have the right to live our lives as we see fit and without the scorn of strangers."

Who are you, Bobby Brown?**

That cracked me up!

Annette said...

First of all, let me just say I'm really enjoying your blog.

Secondly, I'm not surprised by the negative replies you recieved, nor by the positive ones. I'm a big girl and have been so all of my adult life. It took a long time, but I like my body. It's healthy, strong and I'm very active. I never had problem getting dates, and my current boyfriend loves that I'm so comfortable with my body. Someday I may want to lose the weight, but at the moment I'm happy the way I am.

I would have to agree with the person who mentioned that a lot of women with extra pounds have self-esteem issues more than anything else. Nothing is more attractive to me than a man who is confident and comfortable with himself, and I'm sure a lot of men would say that about women too.

Obesio said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Obesio said...

I am a man who has gained about 75 pounds in the last 10 years and lost quite a bit of his hair. I have noticed that I receive a lot less attention from women than I did 75 pounds ago, which, of course, I find hurtful.

I have never blamed women for finding me less attractive. I thought that it made sense that with 75 pounds more on my frame and 75% less hair, fewer women would find me to be an object of amorous interest.

In addition, there is no doubt that my natural body type is a bit "burly" shall we say (even in the best shape of my life, I didn't have six-pack abs). But still, my weight gain corresponds perfectly to my decreasing exercise and increasingly poor diet.

No real point. Just some random thoughts.

Jessica said...

I have to admit I was offended by some of the comments, but also amused by the stupidity of some of them. I also noticed that the negative comments had a less intelligent "tone" to them.

Kiss my formerly fat ass said...

Where the hell do you fat idiots get off thinking that the world has to accept you for who you are?
Why does legislation have to change to suit you? Why do you have to strive to change people's opinions of fat people?

The next time you think of an excuse not to exercise or eat healthy, try taking a walk through a cancer ward at a children's hospital. While you're stroking the hairless head of a 9 year old girl with leukemia, tell her you're fat and unhealthy because you choose not to walk or eat properly. Tell that to a child, who's only wish is to go outside and play.

And while you're all getting angry about your self-induced fatness, ask yourself: Isn't it enough that you can be blind-sided by cancer, MS, heart disease, and terminal illeness you have no control over, yet you continuously stuff your face and try to gain acceptance for your poor body image?

You have the privilege of good health, yet you throw it all away and cry when the world doesn't accept your large physique. Well, sociologists say that humans are instinctly disgusted with fat people because it's a sign of laziness and lack of self control. They're right!

Genetics may have loaded the gun, but you puled the trigger -- and emptied out the entire clip.

So next time you waddle down to KFC to pick up your 12 piece bucket of chicken, at least have the decency to stuff your face and be quiet about it. If I choose to point and laugh, I'll do it with gusto, too.

Think about that while you still have control over your health and body image while some terminally ill person is laying in bed wishing they could have what you take for granted...

xty said...

I think I'm more interested in the responses to this post than the mostly asinine responses from Craig's List. My favorite: Stacey was right on when she said that learning to accept yourself took exceptional amounts of willpower. While I do think it takes a type willpower to diet, I think that willpower comes from a very different place: The compulsion to adhere to standards that may not be your own, as opposed to having the integrity to define yourself on terms that might set you apart from what is deemed socially acceptable.

I was also intrigued by the person who equated standards of beauty with patriarchal control. I know it's kind of an esoteric remark, but I think it deserves more thought. My partner suggested to me the other day that the physical pain and restriction (from foot binding in China, to corsets, high heels, and mini skirts) in women's fashion has very real, if unintended?, consequences--Restriction of mobility and physical prowress. So even if you are a physically strong woman, after years of starving yourself and maiming your feet you're rendered weaker than most men. The same could be line of thought should be followed in terms of beauty standards, reaching a slightly different conclusion: the more time we spend obsessing and hurting ourselves in an effort to conform, the less time we spend thinking about politics, power structures, and our communities.

While I doubt the Atkins diet was employed as a way of keeping folks obsessed with eating steak as opposed to thinking about the agricultural and economic policies behind the havoc that factory farms wreak on our environment and small famers, I still think beauty standards are about control and materialism. Wasn't celluite actually invented sometime in the 80s along with shoulder pads? Too bad hating it didn't go out of style as well. If you're too busy shopping to make yourself pretty for men, you'll have less time to think about what is going on the world and how it affects you.

xty said...

ew. and I hope the person who posted above me curbs the hate sometime soon. yikes.

Lurky McLurkerson said...

People on the NY R&R are totally ridiculous. I once posted asking about cool things to do with my brother when he was in town, and I seriously got two helpful responses and about 10 that said, "Have sex with him!" Yechhhh.

Nice blog, BTW!

Oh, also, does KMFFA above think it's healthy to be a rageaholic? (It's not).

Anonymous said...

"Kiss my formerly fat ass" can now date the negative, stupid responders to the Craig's List ad. Yea for "Kiss my formerly fat ass!" Congratulations, girl. You get the cream of the crop. Have fun.

formerly fat ass said...

To the anonymous above:

Truth hurts, doesn't it? While you wallow in self-denial about your self-imposed early death sentence, you might as well take a proactive approach and save us all the trouble by getting off the couch and jogging around the block.

I never said I was the most gorgeous girl ever. Quite opposite. But at least I feel good about myself and did something about it.

Stick that into your ice cream and eat it.

Anonymous said...

formerly fat ass...why are you so angry? Did losing all that weight include you losing your common decency? If being like you means being a bitch, I'll stay fat any day of the week. I think my favorite part was this:

"I never said I was the most gorgeous girl ever. Quite opposite. But at least I feel good about myself and did something about it"

So, you're admitting to being ugly! Awesome! I'm really sure you feel good about yourself after admitting you're an ugo.

Anonymous said...

You must've really hated yourself, FFA, if you're thin now but still so angry at anyone who reminds you of who you used to be. I hope for the sake of your blood pressure that you find a way past that. It isn't healthy for you, and the rest of us don't want to pay higher health insurance premiums just because you're unwilling to control your self-loathing and rage.

Avery Ray Colter said...

I'm using my real name, because fear, as Muad Dib says, is the mind killer, and I have not believed in being at all ashamed of my own sentiments for a very long time.

Not only would I date fat women, they are the overwhelming majority of the women I have dated. I learned in my early youth to say nasty things to fat girls like everyone else, but even then I had a heightened curiosity about them, and when puberty hit, I couldn't get the idea out of my head that they were actually the most beautiful and sexy of all. When I was coming up, it seemed like this was a heresy befitting Galileo himself. Now I can see that there are actually many other people waking up from this hateful propaganda we've all been spoonfed.

Not only would I date a fat girl, in just short of four weeks I'm going to marry one, and I feel like the luckiest guy in the world!

And that's it. I just don't have time right now for saying nasty things to those who don't agree. Frankly I think their lives would be so much happier if they spent more time rejoicing in what they prefer than spewing venom about what they don't.

I hope your fat girl friend, and any fat person who hasn't gotten a chance to "take the red pill", check out my web site, and consider jacking in to the real world where a loving world is possible. As Morpheus says, "this may feel... a little weird", but being loved as the person you are both inside and out is more satisfying in the long run than anything the deathtalkers can conceive.

kiss my formerly fat ass said...

To the geniuses who enjoy taking what I say out of context:

While I never said I was gorgeous, I'm not ugly, either. I'm quite happy with my husband and have had to fend off lecherous men my entire life -- fat or not. And for me, fat means I've gained 10-15 lbs, which is minimal to say the least, on my 5'7 125 lbs frame.

However, the anger part is directed at your constant whining and lack of dedication to do something about it. Being a bitch is a wonderful thing and the great thing is, because I'm normal, I can get away with it. Trying being a bitch and fat and see how far that gets you. That's probably why you need to form support groups that exclude everybody else.

Since you've failed to read my post about visiting a hospital, I'll reiterate: Taking your health for granted and allowing yourself to become a whale of a human being, driving up insurance premiums, and creating an economic market where supersizing now becomes your kiddie meal, makes me angry. Why would you throw away the God given gift of good health just to contribute to your double chin? Next time tell a bed-confined cancer patient that you don't want to get off the couch because you're lazy and you want to give yourself high blood pressure.

I guess a healthy person can afford to have their blood boil a little bit, but if you were to, you'd give yourself a heart attack.

Hugs&Kisses

stupefied said...

Wow. I thought this post was sort of amusing, sad, wistful and reflects the demographic. But the comments on the post are mainly sad and angry, and that's a shame. Why do people who are so anti-fat bother reading blogs like this, I wonder? WTF?
You girls do rock!

Alessandra said...

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Stop responding to the trolls posting!

Esther said...

Some of those responces made my day and the other ones? Who cares? If someone doesn't want to date me (or any fat, fabulous chick), that's fine. Too bad for them. Fat chicks are hot.

littlem said...

"I've gained 10-15 lbs, which is minimal to say the least, on my 5'7 125 lbs frame"

Oh, lovely. A bigoted judgmental borderline anorexic.

"Being a bitch is a wonderful thing and the great thing is, because I'm normal, I can get away with it."

It'll be interesting to see what happens when she turns 60.

"and creating an economic market where supersizing now becomes your kiddie meal"

Clearly a great deal of fact-finding research into food industry economics and additives, insulin resistance, and anti-depressant side-effects. No swallowing whole & parroting of the uber-capitalist patriarchal line HERE. Does she think for herself much?

"driving up insurance premiums"

Oh, like the eating disorder clinics the principal majority of whose patients are UNDER-, not overweight?

She DOES know that prolonged food restriction can adversely effect neurotransmitter levels and lead to frothing-at-the-mouth outbursts like the ones quoted above, right?

I have several cancer survivors in my family. Thanks BOTH to their regular exercise regimes and the excess FAT (yes, that's right) they carried on their bodies, their odds of survival were categorically improved (chemo, you know) as verified by their doctors. That *ahem* analogy was perhaps, shall we say, misplaced?

As Tim Gunn might say,
"Best not to engage."

littlem said...

Hey, genius Christine of the photographic eye, thanks for the heads up. I'm way overdue for another visit to see what you've got cooking on the blog. :D

Go see Christine's photo essays, everyone!

And Alessandra, I shall (probably!) sneak quietly away now. I read Orwell and Huxley way too early as a kid and I have a hard time letting propagandic "newspeak" go unchallenged, at least once. Knowledge is power.

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Anonymous said...

To *Kiss my formerly fat ass*
I would..but I'm afraid *Bitch* might be contagous.
Just because you got fat overeating apparently, it does not mean the rest of us did.

Hugs, kisses, and pleasantries now aside lol.

First off...For those of you who could not find it in yourselves to post at the very least a *tactful* comment, please..take a good look at yourselves, and exactly how many of you there are,
and come to realize, it's jackasses like YOU, who give other people, who don't fit into your circles low self esteem, weight or otherwise. now when you see just how many of you there are, I hope it makes you sick to your stomach to think that it's also people like you, who are the reason young girls and boys actually Commit Suicide just TRYING to be what you think they should be, so go and screw yourselves.

Secondly
You all prove the point that beauty is only skin deep, and it seems..you just don't have enough skin, because under your skinny asses, all I see is UGLY to the core.
And though you might see yourselves as too good for Us BBW's, perhaps if you looked beyond your own noses you'd see that WE DON'T WANT YOU, Ohh yes I know, a BLOW to the ego, knowing you couldn't even GET a fat girl to go out with you.

And just because in your narrow little minds you think that everyone thinks just like you, it doesn't mean it's true, I'd tell you to wake up and smell the coffee, but really, I'd rather you didn't wake up at all.

I won't be back here again, because for the most part.. I just witnessed the worst humanity has to offer IMO,
Slumming on the internet..

Signed...
Bite my big fat ass.

Esther said...

To: Bite my big fat ass

: )

You are awesome.

Sarah said...

I might be overweight, but I know I have more character and morale than any random loser on the internet.

In the end, your physical body won't matter. Your character will. There is a God, and He is not keeping track of how much you weigh. Believe me, every vile word that comes out of the mouths of the intolerant will not be forgotten.

Kudos to "Bite my big fat ass."

Yes, it may inflame the egos of those who make fun of others to improve their own self-esteem to know that I'm not interested in any of them and that I'm actually a BETTER person. If somebody is not interested in me because of something as shallow as weight, it's THEIR loss, NOT mine!

And to "kiss my formerly fat ass," please provide all the documented statistics to back up your pointless rants. I've worked in the medical field for over six years, and have not gotten ONE negative comment from anybody suffering from terminal illnesses. In fact, I'm often thanked and - gasp - hugged by these people for all the wonderful support I have shown them. Not ONCE has my employer told me to lose weight to get healthy. Not ONCE has my weight mattered to ANYBODY. It just goes to show how empty and shallow of a person you happen to be. I really feel sorry for people like you. I enjoy my life to the fullest and try to show tolerance for everybody. It's a shame when I have to run across people like you. If people like you did not exist, the world would probably be a better place. That goes for everybody else like you. I will pray for you in hopes that God will lighten your heart and mind.

Anonymous said...

YAY GOD

Sarah said...

Anonymous, most likely you probably need something in your life. Try God.

Anonymous said...

Hi,
I'm male, and a bit of a chubby chaser, so possibly a bit biased here, but anyhow:
1. My experience is that fat womens pussys tend to smell less than their skinnier counterparts.
2. The tidiest girl i've ever dated would probably be described as 'fat' by most men.
3. In my experience, it's the women who are more obsessed with weight than the men, speaking to other guys about this, most would rather women stopped worrying about it quite so much (even the ones who find skinny attractive).
4. Yes - we men are quite susceptible to peer pressure, sorry.

Anyways, at the moment i'm dating someone who would probably be seen as 'normal-sized' by most (not fat, not skinny), despite my chubby-chasing tendancies, but that's mainly because i never get bored of her company.

Anonymous said...

The comments about judging fat people as "unhealthy" or "can't take care of themselves" show we have a lot of awareness to raise. I am about 80 pounds past what might be considered an "ideal" weight and am also the healthiest person I know. No health issues, no sick days in the past two years (and never more than one a year before that). I do take care of myself in every way. Walks, good food, good clothes. I have an incredible career and I am breadwinner for my family. Oh, and I'm no spring chicken, either (40something). My body for some reason has decided it's going to be big and there's nothing I can do to change that, so I'm not beating myself up like those poor 140-pound women who are obsessed about those "10 pounds." Life really started when I accepted myself as I am, and I could not care one microgram less about anyone who thinks there's something wrong with my body -- just ain't their business.

Anonymous said...

Well, sociologists say that humans are instinctly disgusted with fat people because it's a sign of laziness and lack of self control.
I have NO idea where you got this terrible, inaccurate piece of information. Being a sociologist myself I NEVER read a single piece of research to support this assumption and would very much appreciate knowing where you read it (or if you pulled it from out of your butt?-which is probably the case).

As for the comments. I am 185lbs, 5'3 and fat. I accept this about myself even though I haven't always been this way. Many years ago I was skinny and very unhealthy (smoking, eating badly etc)-and while I am not an exercise freak and don't always eat right and I am neat and organized. I am also married to a wonderful man who is NOT fat and who exercises regularly--he's not a chubby chaser but he sees me for the smart, funny, sexy and great HUMAN BEING I am. Guys who judge books by their cover are destined to be alone or with someone who in years down the road may be a "fatty"--and then what?

alice said...

Thanks for posting the responses - even though few of them were surprising, it's always interesting to see what people's exact opinions are (in all their misspelled glory, too.)

What always strikes me as sad is the ways in which those folks who are desperate for approval from others turn and pounce on those seen to be lower on the totem pole (guys seeking approval from their friends, some of the trolls above who seem to be looking to prove that they're no longer one of us fatties, etc.) It's one of the most basic forms of social interaction, as we can see on any playground, but it's disheartening that it maintains such a hold over us all once we're past recess.

And for those who've mentioned the patriarchy - ayup. I'm going to have to remember this conversation the next time someone's asking for an example of how the patriarchy harms men - those guys who responded with "well, I'd like her, but I'd have to hide" really aren't in a good place.

Anonymous said...

I would never date a woman who weighs significantly more than average - because to me it's a sign of failure acceptance, not fat acceptance.

Mostly, this is because I am a former fat acceptor, and regularly drank the "you have no choice over your body size" koolaid from the NAAFA website, where it flowed freely. I was pretty heavy all my life, and believed that was just the way my body was, even though I worked out about three times a week and ate fairly healthy.

Oh, little did I understand..

Got a new roommate who was a body builder, and worked out with him at the same gym. I told him I was "eating right and exercising", but just naturally heavy. He asked me for my exercise log and food log. Well, didn't have those, but to humor him I started keeping very rigorous ones - including even water intake. Also weighing myself every morning. In the first month I lost about 10 pounds. I had to move out shortly afterwards, but kept with the log system and over a year dropped about 45 pounds total. Removed NAAFA from my bookmarks the evening I completed my first half marathon.

So if you choose to be fat, more power to you. But I live in Chicago, not rural Sudan, so discipline is more important in a partner than famine resistance..

Anonymous said...

Another thing to add to my above post "Kiss my formerly fat ass" Sociology is the study of SOCIETY not instinct- you moron. Therefore sociologist are more likely to state that people are turned off by fat people due to society's perception of them NOT DUE TO INSTINCT.
Geez go to school and LEARN something. Clearly you didn't take a single sociology course nor do you know anything about the discipline.

Jason said...

To all of you who are angry with "Kiss my formerly fat ass":

Why can't she be allowed to her opinion? Didn't she say it was her opinion? Just ignore it if it offends you. It's your ignorance to the correct factual information that's contributing to your obesity: Going over your required daily caloric requirement will lead to weight gain. Get a BMR or RMR test and figure out it works if you're truely set on weight loss. If you have a medical condition that disputes this, then you've probably found a cure for world hunger.

While many of you obese people may be healthly, asking for people to accept obesity as a social norm in America is extreme. You have every right to be fat. And other people have every right to feel disgusted looking at you. They're preprogrammed that way.

If you want acceptance, why do you slam on skinny people? Are you all hypocrits? Or is it easy to sit here and gang up on skinny people because the majority of the posters here are obese?

People read blogs for many different reasons. People also argue for the sake of argument. It seems many of you here are doing just that.

I am responding because I would never date a fat woman. It's just how I'm programmed. I can help feeling sorry for fat people who have their feelings hurt, because that is unfortunate. This makes me different than most of the malicious posters here, but I can't deny my feelings.

Since there are so many self professed sociologists posting here, maybe you can explain to me, why my instinct is to feel disgusted towards fat people? I think they're lazy and lack self control, even though I know medical conditions exist. Why is that? Instinct... I've always thought that way and even with the knowledge I have now, still think that way.

Those of you who say marilyn monroe would be fat by today's standards have obviously missed the point that she is downright beautiful, curvy, and still not 100 lbs overweight.

Cheers to kiss my formerly fat ass. She's got more than enough attacks. While she still is a bitch, she is the type of person who you should be concentrating on changing rather than attacking.

Some food for thought.

do something about it said...

I cannot believe how many people blame genetics for being fat... in reality, only a tiny percentage of overwight people actually have a genetic disorder that makes them that way. Want to know why fat people are fat? How about because only 20% of the North American population gets regular physical excercise. You need to get cardiovascular excercise 3-5 times a week, for 20-30 minutes at a time, and 80% of the population does not do that... genetics doesn't stop them, laziness and lack of motivation does.

And then, there's fast food, junk food, binge eating, emotional eating, unbalanced eating, overeating...... that is not genetic, that is lack of control.

And really, whoever said that fat people will survive a famine longer, are you really expecting that anytime soon??? You have an overabundance of food while the 3rd world countries are starving, so what are you saving that extra fat for?

You have the ability to improve your body everyday. Why don't you? Don't say it's too hard, blah blah blah... it's not... eat less and start moving. Burn more calories than you consume, that's really all there is too it, people's attitudes are what makes it difficult

Anonymous said...

Snorrrrrr!!!!!! Why are people who are so against fat even here? Why are they trolling the internet for fat blogs?

Christi Nielsen said...

littlem - I think I have a blogger crush on you! Is there such a thing? ;-)

Esther said...

Why the sudden influx of fat bashers? Did they post the link on a "skinny peoples' blog"?

Anyway, here are somethings I wanted to get off my chest:
1. Yes, I am fat. I know this. I have a mirror. I don't need someone to tell me every five mintutes, but if they decide to act like assholes and scream "Hey you. Fatty fatty fat fat" at me from their cars, that it is their right (because of that whole free speech thing)
2. I have never bashed skinny people. What reason would I have? I don't envy them. Nor do I hate them. I'm totally indifferent.
3. Don't assume that just because I'm fat, I want to lose weight. Whenever I see a skinny girl, my first thought is not, "Wow, she must have alot of willpower to have not eaten in three years...I want to vomit five times a day so I can look just like her." I'm wondering about more important things....like what's on Lost this week.
4. Like I said before, if a guy doesn't want to date me that is prefectly okay. What makes them think I am so desperate for a date that I would go out with them anyway? I would rather a guy not ask me out then if he did and got pissed because a fat chick regected him.
5. We all have our own preferences when it comes to dating. I'm not offended that some guys don't like fat chicks. I don't like idiots or guys who have ever worked as clowns but I find myself drawn to tall, husky guys....usually in rock bands...(sigh)...but that's not the point...I've forgotten what is so I'm going to end it here before I ramble on anymore.
Peace.
^.^

PS- I want someone to have a blogger crush on me. : (

littlem said...

Must. Resist. Bashing. Clueless. Commenters.

Cannot. Resist ...

Jason -
"I am responding because I would never date a fat woman. It's just how I'm PROGRAMMED" (emphasis mine)

Dingdingdingdingding!! We have a winner!! Kudos for making our EXACT POINT even though I'm sure you didn't even mean to.

Thank you for playing.

Anonymous 7 or so posts above -
"Oh, little did I understand.."

And probably still do BECAUSE clearly men's and women's bodies process fat and calories quite differently AND you all have a muscle mass advantage to start with - ever notice with those husband/wife weight loss challenges the man inevitably loses 20 lbs while the woman loses 2? Can you statistics-heads point to any example of the opposite that you have ever seen? Could your complete lack of empathy stem from the fact that you've never experienced what women are dealing with at the LEVEL they are dealing with it? And that your excess resentment of bigger women (and the linguistic break you give your larger buds with terms like "big guy") stems in part from that empathy lack?

The question here is not whether some people lack discipline. Whatever. The problem is people like you, who treat people larger than you, WHETHER OR NOT THEY WORK OUT DAILY AND EAT WELL, with prejudice and disgust. The issue here is your bigotry, not their habits.

To Anonymous 11 posts up -

"4. Yes - we men are quite susceptible to peer pressure, sorry."

Apology (assuming you actually meant it and were not just throwing the word out there) not accepted yet! Here's why:

Do you SEE the relationship between THESE

"we men are quite susceptible to peer pressure"

"the tidiest [sic?] girl i've ever dated would probably be described as 'fat' by most men"

and THIS???

"In my experience, it's the women who are more obsessed with weight than the men"

So if you want THIS

"speaking to other guys about this, most would rather women stopped worrying about it quite so much (even the ones who find skinny attractive)"

perhaps it would help if you
STOP
DOING
THIS

"we men are quite susceptible to peer pressure"

"the tidiest [sic?] girl i've ever dated would probably be described as 'fat' by most men"

!!!!!!!


See how much ink you McBlog girls have generated? Rock on with your bad selves.

*risking thread drift*
Esther -

1) part of blog crush is mutuality, I think. Although I don't blog, check out Christi Nielsen's blog. Her words are searing and her photography is smoking. :D

2) I went to your page - you are just starting to apply to college! I am way out of college. I'm sure you'll have LOTS of blog crushees in years to come if you keep it up (why did you take your myspace page down?). Rock on!

Christi Nielsen said...

Anonymous people - can you at least start numbering yourselves so we know who we're talking to/about? Anonymous1, Anonymous2, Anonymous3, you get the idea...

Jill said...

I don't believe that you are happy, ffa.
I can't see how a happy person would feel the need to be so hostile towards strangers. And the bitches I met so far didn't strike me as paricularly happy either.

But there are several points I don't understand in this discussion.
First of all, I don't get the idea that the character magically improves by being overweight.(Okay, ffa does her best to convince me otherwise.)
So, there is not a hypothetical choice between thin bitches and wonderful fat persons.

Another opinion I simply don't understand is the idea of being loved despite being fat. We are talking about love with a sexual component here, and I for one want to be loved not only for my inner beauty, but also be found sexy the way I look. (5'11" at about 200 pounds.)

Okay, many men may not find me attractive.
I find many men not attractive either.

Six said...

I'm not in the least bit surprised by any of the negative responses you've received to the ad you placed on New York Craigslist, nor am I surprised by any of the negative responses which you've received to this post.

There are now and there will always be a bunch of people out there who have all these wacky "theories" about why other people who are different from themselves are the way they are and why they feel the way they do about them. Nothing new there. Who cares about them? Not me. Not anymore. It's a waste of time and energy, which could be put to use doing something more productive and positive. Screw that!

In the end, I don't give a damn about anyone who doesn't care about me. Don't like me 'cause I'm fat? So what? Who cares? I don't need your acceptance or your permission to exist. I'm here and I'm gonna be here until God sees fit to remove me from the planet. Until then, I've got better things to do, so step aside and let the fat lady through.

Feel like yelling, "FATSO!" out of a car window at me as you pass by? Whatever. Just make sure you see the speeding car coming towards you, or you might end up in a ditch... or worse. Yeah, as I pass by the burning, twisted mix of flesh and steel which used to be, separately, you and your car, I'll not stop to ask you if it was worth it, because I'll already know the answer.

I used to care about what people like that thought about me when I was a kid - then I grew up and put childish things away. Whatever my so-called "issues" are, they're my damn business and not anybody else's, just like the choices I make. My choices - my business. Your opinions about my choices/business - your business, not mine. Again, I ask... who cares?

I have family. I have friends. I have always had lovers. I have one now whom I've been with for nine years. He loves me and I love him. I have had successes, as well as failures. I've had good days, as well as bad days. That's never gonna change. That's just Life. I'm too busy living it to worry about what other people think about me.

The only thing an "experiment" like this proves is, well... familiarity breeds contempt. The more I learn about other people, the more I'm inclined to avoid them and keep to myself. If I lived to be a hundred, I'd still never please everyone, so why try? I say, live your life to the best of your abilities and fuck the rest. We all end up dust anyway, no matter what we look like or own, contrary to popular belief.

This is a good blog. The posts are frequently interesting and/or entertaining. Carry on!

hilde said...

Um, you want people to die in violent car crashes just because they called you a mean name? seems a little extreme to me, and also indicative that you really do care on some level, despite your professions to the opposite.

I'm glad people above you have made the point that hating on skinny people is counterproductive.

Jan said...

I think there are two separate issues being discussed here: one is the basic civility that would keep people from being impolite to others, no matter what they look like or what they think about the way they look like. And so that we don't get into the whole "fat people are fat cause they want to", which is the gist of what KMFFA and the guy who had the bodybuilder roommate both said, although with different levels of ability to express themselves and politeness, I'll give you an example. Mullets. I find mullets ugly personally, and nope, I'd never if I were single date a person who has one. And yes, people who have their hair like that did it to themselves, there is no such thing as a genetic disorder that makes you more prone to having that haircut, unlike the tons that will do the same when it comes it to fat. Yet I do not go around yelling things or being impolite to people who sport such a haircut, because it is not my place to say so. Basic civility.

The second thing being discussed is the actual fat stereotypes, but I don't think they should matter to make point #1. It doesn't matter if you think that all fat people are lazy and eat 58 doughnuts a day if you have basic manners. And of course, all the stereotypes are b.s., and no, fighting AGAINST the stereotypes has nothing to do with wanting people to be fat, even if it might seem so to some fat activists. I don't subscribe to the notion that we should all diet to fit some patriarchal beauty ideal, or that fat people are lazy, stupid, have low self-esteem, overeat, did this to themselves, or any of that crap, and that has nothing to do with wanting people to be fat. I want people to be whatever way their genetics allow them to be, and their lifestyle allows them to be, and to be free to choose whatever lifestyle, even if they happen to be the one guy eating the 58 doughnuts a day cause they want to.

Anonymous said...

littlem said: "And probably still do BECAUSE clearly men's and women's bodies process fat and calories quite differently AND you all have a muscle mass advantage to start with "

Nice try - but my point wasn't that I lost weight fast, it's that I lost weight consistently. If you need less calories to sustain your body, then consume less. If you're riding a bike across the US, consume more. My problem is that these vague "metabolisms vary" excuses are at their core BS. I don't know a single obese person who's kept a detailed log of food intake and exercise and justified their actions - it always comes down to "I never overeat and I exercise regularly, but mommy was a big woman too". In my own case, the question I never asked was exactly how much do I exercise and exactly how much do I consume. You'll find your perception is pretty skewed once the numbers hit the paper.

Plus, nowhere on NAAFA or any other FA literature do I see any acknowledgement that weight loss is possible for men and not for women. We are all supposed to fail equally at it according to party doctrine.

I empathize with fat people. I remember a time not too long ago when I had trouble tying my shoelaces, and can imagine how difficult it is for someone much heavier. I don't empathize with fat acceptors who set people up for failure by saying change is impossible, and whatever they do they'll wind up back where they started. If you choose to stay fat, stay fat. If you don't want to stay fat, listen to the people who've lost weight, not those who have failed at it..

Anonymous said...

A couple things I don't get:

A) For all of you who are overweight, if you could wake up one morning with an average weight would you? Or if someone could put a spell on you where you lost a pound a day until you were a normal weight? Would you do it?

B) In countries or war times where people starve there are no fat people. You can't not eat and still be fat. How does it work to say no matter what you eat you stay the same weight?

Christi Nielsen said...

The WarTime Diet. There's your next best seller pilled high on the table as you walk into Barnes & Noble. Perhaps the author will choose to write under the pen name of "Anonymous."

Anonymous said...

I'm a big girl, a beautiful amazon queen. Six foot tall with hair down to my ass and blue eyes. My best friend is what you would call "normal". 5'4", 120lbs, long brown hair and hazel eyes. Guess who finds a higher quality of man, ME! The magz out there say i am fat, fat fat. At 6'0" 250ish hehe. I may not be able to get into every sexual postion, or wear gap clothing, but i have style and beauty to boot. I'm smart, funny and have the man of my dreams, I feel you can be a big girl and still be healthy. Why not? Guys are.

Anonymous said...

I think the comments from Craigs List reflect some men many of us would never want to date. Usually I find a man that is too caught up in how a woman looks (as far as weight) has "look issues" of his own (bad teeth, odd hair, sunken chest etc) and is trying to make up for it by who he is with.
I have spent time being overweight in dealing with my thyroid disease. I don't eat junk food or sugar and follow the South Beach Diet. I walk every day, but there are times my thyroid goes sideways and I put on weight and sleep quite a bit.
The man I date is attractive and lives for helping me try to overcome this disease. Fat or thin can change at any time - but evil people never do.
It's funny, because when I was well and thin - I rarely dated, but when I put on weight and became ill...men asked me out all the time and most all wanted to "fix it".
I hope this eases any pain those post might have caused other women.
My best to you all.
R

Anonymous said...

I came across this while browsing through the blogosphere and I gotta say:

Wow, depressing, some really mean people out there who need to get lives.

and (here's the ranty part)

But what did you *really* expect from Craigslist? Seriously, placing an ad like that, even in the spirit of pseudo-research, is like a matador waving a huge red flag at a bull and yelling "come 'n' gore me!"

Why go looking for this kind of trouble when there's already so much anti-fat bias and prejudice already out there? Aren't there better ways to spend your time? Why bring yourselves (and others who struggle with the same issues) down with this negativity?

Julie said...

I've kept a food intake journal and I eat LESS than a person of "normal" size. I've had my food journals looked at by several doctors - all agree my fatness DOES NOT come from my diet. I eat completely healthy and I exercise at least an hour a day, not including running, plus the time I spend playing with my dogs/walking them.

Don't even begin to tell me I'm fat because I'm lazy and don't do anything. I'm more active than all of my skinny friends, but I do not lose weight. A five mile walk is nothing to me. I'm not winded going up a flight of stairs. I'm healthy, but I'm fat. If you can't deal with that and want to believe that everyone can lose weight, they "just don't try", then you can shove your thumb up your ass and keep on walkin'.

Anonymous said...

I think this one was my favorite:

"the fat people move slower and are more sedentary and more likely to be attacked and injuredwhich is why there is a very natural aversion to fat people"

Yep. In the great herd of society, no one wants to be seen grazing with the big fat gazelle that can't outrun the lion.


Lord, thank you for making me a dyke.

mairceridwen said...

I wonder how different the answers would be if you polled different parts of the country. The way I see it, it could go either way. The answers might reflect more fat acceptance in places like Ohio and Indiana. But since the answers are fairly diverse, I think they would reflect (like NYC), the kinds of people who feel compelled to answer the question.

Oh and for anyone who says that fat women can do something about being fat, whereas short men cannot is full of it. All they have to do is add inches to their wallets. *wink*

Anonymous said...

Anonymous a few posts back with "a couple of things I don't get": No one is going to address your question. It's a fundamental problem for most of the FA crowd - you can't say "I'm fat because I don't have a choice", and then choose to stay fat if you had the option of a magic spell available. When questions like yours crop up, FA proponents dismiss them with some flippant remark or just ignore them, because they got nothing. Also, no one in the history of FA has ever explained how you don't see at least some fat people during an extended famine. These questions invariably come up in any discussion that isn't restricted to the inner party, and they are invaribly ignored. Look at who you're asking for information - most FA people listen to Paul Campos (a lawyer with zero medical training), rather that about 8 gazillion doctors, nutritionists, various governmental organizations, the World Heath Organization, and the CDC, who all recommend against obesity.

Julie: how long did you keep your logs? Was it for several months or just a couple of weeks? Also, how did you measure your exercise? (as in "45 min cardio at 170bpm average" or just "30 minutes walking") I am asking because it is impossible by the laws of thermodynamics to expend more energy than you input and not lose weight. Any scientist on the planet will corroborate this, and I have yet to hear one single person here make an intelligent argument to dispute it. The only way weight maintenance would happen is if you had severe water retention to compensate for the muscle/fat loss, which would mean you are not healthy.

A 5 mile walk is pretty trivial by most athletic standards. For me that would be about a 300-400 calorie output. In comparison, one of my long bike rides uses approx 5000. So there's exercise and then there's exercise.

The reason for keeping food logs is not calorie restriction, it's to make sure you're getting enough nutrients. When you get enough vitamins, iron, protein, yadda yadda, you don't need to eat any more. Only way you could maintain weight at that point is by not burning as many calories as you are eating. It's not a contest to get your calorie level as close to zero as possible though a lot of people try that, but to get your (output-input) exactly where you want it.

Here in the midwest the whole idea of "genetic fatness" is a huge joke. You go to Ryan's (local steak buffet), and you'll see people who weigh 450-500 pounds eating over 10,000 calories in one meal. Go down the street to the local Crazy Bowls (healthy fast food), and everyone is normal sized. As long as the general public is seeing what's right in front of them, your argument falls on deaf ears.

Disclaimer: I'm not interested in converting people. If you want to be fat, be fat and I'll cheerfully leave you alone. But I differentiate between people who choose to be fat and those who have been brainwashed into believing they don't have a choice, and unfortunately you seem to fall in the second category.

Anonymous said...

I stumbled onto this by chance and it's made interesting reading. I'm 5'6 and 200lbs. I spent my teen years miserable and depressed at being fat...teenagers are not the most accepting of fault. And then I hit my 20's and life did change. Men do seem able to look beyond a bit of excess me.
My fiance loves every inch of me. And has given me so much confidence in myself.
Sadly there will always be men who are shallow enough that bodily perfection is all that counts. It's just a fact of life. Just as there are women who want perfect men. Personally I'd rather have intelligence and humour in my man than a six-pack, but each to their own.
Keep up the good work :)

Anonymous said...

Dear Kiss My Formerly Fat Ass,

A few points for your consideration:-

Firstly, what’s with the child-cancer guilt-trip? I can only assume you must have experienced some terrible loss in your life, for which I might have felt some measure of compassion if you hadn’t gone so completely out of your way to make me dislike you. My father died at 55 of cancer of the oesophagus. His deterioration was very rapid and during the final few days of his life he had to have a plastic tube put down his throat in order to eat or drink. Since your innate prejudice will render redundant any attempt on my part to go into the specifics about genetic inheritance or dieting history, let’s just say my dad was a fat kid who grew into a fat adult and that stigma and repeated dieting both played a pretty big part in his life. By the time the plastic tube became a necessity, the cancer had metastasized all over the place and there was very little left of him – yet, when he was told he’d need to drink fizzy drinks to scour out the tube at regular intervals, he automatically asked my mother and I to bring him diet sodas. Yep, that’s right, my emaciated father was on his death bed yet still felt driven to atone for the heinous crime of being overweight. Maybe you think that’s somehow laudable, KMFFA, that societal brainwashing rendered my father apologetic to the last but it makes me sad and very, very angry.

Secondly, given that fat people make up a sizable portion of society, the law of averages alone dictates we cannot possibly all be lazy, weak-willed, greedy, stupid, ignorant, slovenly, irresponsible and unhealthy by default. For instance, several posters have mentioned that they eat healthily and lead very active lives. Did you skip these posts by any chance? Or is ‘self-deluding liar’ merely the latest contribution to the Bumper List Of Fat Stereotypes incessantly trotted out by naïve, simplistic, self-proclaimed bitches like yourself every time a fat person has the timerity to demand a little basic human respect? I can’t speak for everybody who reads this blog; I came to it via a link elsewhere – but in answer to your question, “why do you have to strive to change people's opinions of fat people?”your own bile-filled invective certainly serves as an adequate example of why I personally feel motivated to do so.

Hate to Psyche 101 you, (actually I don’t. You called me an idiot. I reckon turn about is fair play), but, for someone who professes to feel so good about herself, you’re not exactly exuding inner calm and contentment. In fact, some might say your vituperative posts read a little like projected self-loathing. You justify your disproportionate rage at fat people by saying it’s in response to our “constant whining and lack of dedication to do something about” the state of being fat. Let’s just look at that telling little phrase, “lack of dedication”, shall we? It’s a known fact that hatred stems from ignorance and fear. But it would be simplistic of me to say fat is the thing you fear you will become, hence your anger towards fat folk. Because that isn’t it – or, if it is, it’s not the whole story.

In my opinion, your anger probably has a lot more to do with the fact that some of us have chosen to channel the energy we used to put into self-hatred into accepting ourselves as we are, (something, incidentally, that requires supreme effort and dedication), and you resent the hell out of us for it. You, with your imagined superfluity of weight, had to work long and hard to banish it from your body, Why the hell should we, the genuinely fat, not suffer as you did? Where do we get off not buying into the same narrow definitions of physical beauty that plainly have you hamstrung? Because make no bones about it – this argument is not about health. It’s about asthetics and bigotry. If you don’t give a damn about insulting my intelligence you sure don’t give a flying one about my health. Again, I can’t speak for anyone else you’ve offended here, but I refuse to accept that the way I look makes me in any way inferior to you. The same goes for what I eat, how much I eat, whether I exercise or how much I exercise. I'm a person. You're a person. End of sodding story.

Buffpuff

Anonymous said...

The reason most BBW are not self confident is because of the 98% of the men who dont like us and think we are lazy and dont take care of our selves so when a genuine guy that likes BBW comes along we dont think they could like us for us and they are just like the rest of the male population.

littlem said...

All right, now I'm pissed.

"J ... how long did you keep your logs? Was it for several months or just a couple of weeks? Also, how did you measure your exercise? (as in "45 min cardio at 170bpm average" or just "30 minutes walking") I am asking because it is impossible by the laws of thermodynamics to expend more energy than you input and not lose weight."

Anonymous, you're SUCH a supercilious condescending idiot.

Do some research on SSRIs before spouting off. (We're not even going to get into the issue that it's really no one's business but Julie's and her doctor's what her food log says.)

Not one of those gazillion doctors you are desperate to quote has a clue why some people who take SSRIs mysteriously gain weight and others don't. (And I'm just talking about ONE factor in the ongoing multiple-factored metabolic mystery of obesity, eating and activity patterns notwithstanding.) The doctors know seratonin and the brain's appetite center are somehow related, but the attendant weight gain (or loss, for that matter) has NOTHING to do with energy expenditure, and they have NO IDEA WHY IT HAPPENS. My mother is dealing with this right now and her diet is being monitored by her doctor, and she spends an hour a day in the gym, lifting what's probably the equivalent of YOUR body weight in addition to her cardio work.

If you have nothing original, helpful, or empathetic to say and nothing to do other than judge other people ("a couple of weeks" - soooo snotty), sit the **** down and SHUT THE **** UP.

You're not even on topic.

And you don't even know it.

littlem said...

P.S. Goooooooooo, Buffpuff!!! Whooooo!!!!

(*roundoff double back handspring by fat cheerleader*)

Anonymous said...

I "mysteriously" gained weight when a doctor put me on Remeron for insomnia. I went from 105 to 135 in two months, without changing what I ate. I looked horrible and couldn't even walk because my body was so imbalanced.
The difference was marked. I sweated a LOT more, my legs rubbed together and I got rashes, clothes hurt to wear, I got tired walking around the mall.

It was pretty funny because my sister (who has been 40 pounds overweight because of her horrible habits) found it amusing I was fat. Within three weeks of stopping medication I was back to my normal weight and she was no longer smirking.

Now my sister and I are 1.5 years apart, have the same body type and until age 16 or 17 were around the same weight (5'1, 105-110 pounds). My sister started binge eating secretly and slowly gained a ton of weight.

To this day she swears she can't help it..she eats "barely anything"..she is mostly a big complainer. There is no way in hell we eat the same amounts of food. She also smokes and drinks a lot and basically doesn't take care of herself. She is always going on some crash diet or another.

I don't know, it's not some genetic thing with her. She says I got the "good genes" but I don't think so.l

Like the person above said, where are all the fat people when there is a famine? If you could mysteriously wake up one morning at a healthy weight wouldn't you?

And people everywhere are not "fat". If you go to France you really don't see any fat people. Why is this?

Sarah said...

Wow anonymous, I'd be sorry to be your sister. Do you really know exactly how much she eats? You sound like the food police. That's a terrible way to treat your kin. Did it ever occur to you that her crash dieting may be causing the weight gain because it's screwing up her metabolism? Maybe try accepting her as she is instead of encouraging her to trash her own body, eh?

And as for the "people everywhere are not 'fat'": Have you been to Europe? I'm living in Portugal right now and though most of the population is really short (genetic) and there are many thin people, there are also many fat people. There are fat people all over the world. In some places it's even respected. So before you make assumptions, try actually visiting other places.

sarah mae said...

I'd like to see the results when men are asked whether or not they would date an extremely thin, bony anorexic girl, under the same circumstances (great personality, smart, whatever).


I like what you guys are doing here. I think that, as fat women, we need to realize that we have as much power and beauty as any other woman, and our opinions are not less important because we're larger. Research for fat women, by fat women. Nothing better.


And by the way, we really are better in bed.

Anonymous said...

littlem: Go to Wikipedia and look up the laws of thermodynamics before posting more drivel. It's head-up-your-ass, intellectually lazy, morons like yourself who make it difficult for those who do want to change to actually change.

I don't care what drugs you're on (and based on your writing certain psychoactive ones do come to mind), it is IMPOSSIBLE to maintain weight while consuming less calories than you're expending. Period. End of discussion. No one disputes this. I mean no one. How can I make this any clearer?

Yes, I know how reuptake inhibitors work, but I don't think they bend the laws of physics. Ok?

I don't know why you fat acceptors can't get this - it's not a matter of biology, it's a basic fact of physics. And you seem to think that because somehow 0.05% of the population has a really hard time losing weight that it's impossible for everyone. Try harder and find fewer excuses..

GoBetty said...

This is the fuckin' shit! Well done fatties. Good on you for the responses. I love the drama. And, "fear is a mind killer".

Lotte said...

Does this mean that because I am thin, people assume I'm tidy and active?

WHAT A LAUGH! I'm a huge slob with self-esteem issues and wouldn't jog if a guy with a knife was chasing me.

It's interesting how the responses you got are exactly what I would have predicted based on having read The Fat Girl's Guide to Life. Depressing, but interesting.

Keep blogging, ladies.

Esther said...

The Fat Girl's Guide to Life
sucked. Complete downer. Everyone told me, "You just have to read it. It's so funny." No, it wasn't. It was lame. If you want to read a good fat positive book, try Fat?So!.

Anonymous said...

Littlem, the feeling's mutual. You rock. Kindly add me to your crush list forthwith!

Isn't it simply remarkable, (to say nothing of tedious), just how often fat-bashers chose to cloak their bigotry beneath bogus concern for our physical health?

Who the hell has time for going on 5000 calorie-burning bike rides for pity's sake? Are you training for the Tour De France, Anonymous-of-the-"five-miles-is-pretty-trivial-by-most-athletic-standards"-schtick? Has your car broken down? Do you actually have a life outside of exercising - like, y'know, friends, family, pets, a job? Because I'd hazard a guess Julie probably does and I'll bet she's living it to the full.

And since no one else has, I will reply to "A Couple Of Things I Don't Get":-

Firstly, there is a distinct difference between all-out, total starvation, (such as experienced in certain parts of Africa, for example, or in German concentration camps, if we're going with the wartime theme), and learning to survive on a poor or limited diet in harsh circumstances. Remember the Cold War, the old Iron Curtain? Ever seen news footage of impoverished Russians lining up for hours to get their hands on a couple of cabbages or a loaf of bread? See many skinny ones, did you? No. Me neither.

When we diet, we semi-starve our bodies, thus creating a semi-famine situation and our metabolisms slow down accordingly, so the next time semi-famine strikes, our bodies will have learned to store fat more efficiently. That's why 95% of ALL dieters, (and that includes people who only think they're fat), put all their weight back on, with a little bit more for luck, every time they stop dieting. And the more often they diet, the more they put back on every time. It's called recidivism, I believe. Of course, the kind of sturdy Russian peasant stock I myself am descended from didn't have the luxury of twatting about with calorie-counters at the turn of the last century. They were too busy trying to avoid being slaughtered during the next Pogrom.

As for the miracle pill which would make me slim? It's tempting to say yes. Not because I have a problem with my size. But because, as demonstrted here, so many other buggers seem to - and holding one’s head up in the face of being branded dense, indolent, ill-educated, self-indulgent, unhygienic, morally lacking, athsetically displeasing and/or possessed of a victim mentality by the world and his wife gets pretty tiring. So yes, a little respite would be nice. But actually..? I think I'd be happier keeping the weight and opting for a pill that just made me a few inches taller. I like having lush, voluptuous curves. If I woke up with a figure like Calista Flockhart, I'd top myself.

Buffpuff

Elizabeth said...

My husband loved me in my size 14 wedding dress, he loved me at over 200 pounds when I was 9 months pregnant, and he loves me now in my size 4 jeans. He has never made me feel bad about the way I've looked and he treats me no differently now that I've lost the weight. That's the difference between men and boys.

Anonymous said...

anonymous said: "Who the hell has time for going on 5000 calorie-burning bike rides for pity's sake? Are you training for the Tour De France,"

well, am guessing that he rides faster than julie waddles, so it might not take that much time for him

sure, I would date one of you gals, but I only drive a quarter ton..

Strata said...

Very cool idea, and very interesting bunch of comments.

I met my husband on match.com back in 1996, and we emailed back n forth quite a bit before meeting for a first date. He was one of the only guys who didn't pepper their early emails with questions about my size-- like the really nice guy who I never heard from again after several lengthy increasingly friendly emails, after I told him clearly that I wasn't just 'chubby' or 'plump'. My husband has told me that his first thought on meeting me was 'wow, she's really big!' but that after spending a few minutes with me, his second thought was 'this is it, I just have that feeling'. His preferences don't usually run to larger women, I'm his exception.

So hang in there, they're out there.

Anonymous said...

...sure, I would date one of you gals, but I only drive a quarter ton

Oh wow. That's so kind of you! When can we meet? I mean really. You sound so witty! I'd shag you in a heartbeat - 'cuz, being so fat and all, I'm just so desperate, I'd actually consider going out with someone with an IQ in single figures.

Get off this site, you silly little man.

Buffpuff

Anonymous said...

I posted earlier about my sister and got a bunch of CRAP.

Why in god's name should I accept my sister for what she is, when she is overweight, unhealthy, and is complete denial about it?

When we go on camping trips she can`t even go on hikes with us, which is plain sad. I love my sister, and refuse to baby her or "accept" what she is doing to herself.

She binge eats secretly. To me this is just like any other eating disorder, just as bad as anorexia. Overly skinny or overly fat is the same to me. The goal is being healthy.

I am not accepting this because I know she hates it too and would love to be the same size as me. There is NO DIFFERENCE between our body types besides eating and exercise. Growing up we were within pounds of each other until she started the binge eating habit. My parents brought her to the doctor who ran tests and found nothing wrong with her. Now that she has kept her awful habits she is in danger of many things: not being able to have kids, high blood pressure, etc etc etc. I love her and don't want that for her.

Also I have been to France, I even studied there for two years...my grandmother still lives there and my mom was born there. And for all your information THERE ARE REALLY NO FAT PEOPLE IN FRANCE. Go walk around a street in Paris and then go walk around some mall in Virginia and there is an OBVIOUS, OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE.

Whatever

Esther said...

I'd like to see the results when men are asked whether or not they would date an extremely thin, bony anorexic girl, under the same circumstances (great personality, smart, whatever).
I would love to see that. I can just hear (or read) the asinine comments, filled with the usual grammatical and spelling errors, now:
"skinni chicks r hot"
or
"Id hit it"
Oh the stupidity.

Anyways.
I think that if people are so unhappy with they way they are, they should stop complaining and do something about it. If you don't want to except it, change it.

Dani said...

I highly doubt anyone is "enjoying their life to the fullest" when they can't fit in a both or a normal sized chair, can't walk up stairs, can't go on walks with the family, can't do many NORMAL things because of their size and weight. I know I certainly wasn't, and you can't convince me that folks that are obese (not just overweight) aren't just like I was. The body is NOT meant to carry that much extra weight.

When I was in high school I wore about a size 14 or 16. I was by far, one of the biggest girls in school, and i really wasn't fat. Never got picked on or anything, I just wasn't a size 8. Looking around today, it is HORRIFYING to see how many overweight teens and adults there are compared to how many there were in the 1990s. Anyone who says this change is normal is in such deep denial. It isn't healthy to be overweight. That has been proven by medical science. The VAST majority of folks who are obese are very unhealthy. Sure there are exceptions. But, it seems that most overweight folks try and fit themselves into that very small, healthy minority. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. It took me 29 years to realise how unhealthy I was and to do something about it. I can only hope that America wakes up and figures out what I did.

You might not be lazy and smelly, but you certainly aren't healthy. Why would anyone want to get into a relationship with someone who doesn't care that they are on the road to an early death? You CAN lose weight, there are a million ways to do it. Log yourself into fitday.com and track what you eat. You might be surprised.

Esther said...

Yeah, but who really wants to live to ninty anyway?

(You can almost taste the sarcasm)

So let me get this straight:
If you are perfectly healthy, (you ride your bike five hundred miles a day, eat all your veggies, woundn't think of touching something resembling a peice of candy) what's to stop a car from hitting you tomorrow?
What good is calorie counting then? Will your daily 5k run/walks help you? I pretty sure the last thing that you think before leaving this earth won't be "Oh, no. I had more than 10 carbs today".

My point is that no one can tell what is going to happen tomorrow (or even in the next hour).
I do live my life to the fullest. Yes, I am "obese". I am "overweight" (over what weight? Normal people weight? Who wants to be normal?). But that has never stopped me from walking or taking the stairs or sit in a "normal" chair.

Anonymous said...

I'm cubby, I mean chubby. LOL. Omg! I have had so many men in love with me who are STILL after 20 years or more!! They were funny, handsome, intelligent, and they could spell! I was ALWAYS the dumper, not the dumpee. Honey, there is someone out there for everybody. Nowadays, more than ever, it's much easier to find them. Hold your head up and stand tall. Walk with true confidence and you will draw people like a magnet!

Six said...

hilde said...

Um, you want people to die in violent car crashes just because they called you a mean name? seems a little extreme to me, and also indicative that you really do care on some level, despite your professions to the opposite.

I'm glad people above you have made the point that hating on skinny people is counterproductive.


Um, no, Jackass. I don't want people to die. I just think that driving down the road requires that you pay attention to what you're doing, instead of taking your attention away from driving to yell at someone passing by because they're fat.

*reaches into pocket* Here's a dollar. Go buy yourself a clue.

Six said...

Elizabeth said...

My husband loved me in my size 14 wedding dress, he loved me at over 200 pounds when I was 9 months pregnant, and he loves me now in my size 4 jeans. He has never made me feel bad about the way I've looked and he treats me no differently now that I've lost the weight. That's the difference between men and boys.


AMEN, sister! *high fives Elizabeth*

My man loves the shiznit outa me! I couldn't get rid of him if I tried, and I wouldn't try, because he is truly a MAN in a world full of silly, little BOYS! Thank God for MEN! I love me some MEN! MEN RULE! No slam to my lesbian sistas intended. Do your thing, too, sistas! :)

To the so-called "men" out there: If you prefer fat women, that's fine.
If you prefer thin women, that's fine, too, but don't bash people because they're not your preference. First of all, I CHOOSE who I'm going to be with and NOT the other way around. As if I'd ever submit to being picked over and selected like slaves at the Slave Trading Post. PLEASE! You don't like me? GET TO STEPPIN, SUCKA! *boots 'em in the arse*

In addition, I REFUSE to bash thin women - or any other kind of women - simply because they are different from me. If they choose to do that, that's on them. For the record, I have thin female friends who would kick some of the arses of the guys on that Craigslist AND on this post for talking in such a negative way about someone whom they care a lot about: ME - and I'd do the same for them.

Later for these knuckleheads! NO WOMAN has to put up with this crap from ANY man. There's men out there for EVERY woman, no matter what size. Don't settle for second best, ladies. Get you one who will love you NO MATTER WHAT and kick these other losers to the curb.

Roll me in flour...I dare ya... said...

"I posted earlier about my sister and got a bunch of CRAP."

You didn't get crap. You just didn't get a bunch of people posting your praises for your *cough* deep thoughts and *supersized cough* concern for your sis.

"Why in god's name should I accept my sister for what she is, when she is overweight, unhealthy, and is complete denial about it?"

Because God doesn't like sibling rivalry and wants you to do better things with your time besides spy on your sister's "secret" bingeing and moan about how awful she is.

"When we go on camping trips she can`t even go on hikes with us, which is plain sad. I love my sister, and refuse to baby her or "accept" what she is doing to herself."

OK, Dr. Phil, we understand you're a real "pull yourself up by your fat ass bootstraps" kinda person, but maybe you should consider whether your SuperNanny approach is really working for your sis? Or for you?

"he binge eats secretly. To me this is just like any other eating disorder, just as bad as anorexia."

OK, this I agree with. Bingeing really sucks. Do you know, however, that even if your sister treats her bingeing, she may stay the same weight? Do you know that treating eating disorders includes massive work on self-esteem INDEPENDENT of food, diet and body?

"I am not accepting this because I know she hates it too and would love to be the same size as me. There is NO DIFFERENCE between our body types besides eating and exercise. Growing up we were within pounds of each other until she started the binge eating habit. My parents brought her to the doctor who ran tests and found nothing wrong with her. Now that she has kept her awful habits she is in danger of many things: not being able to have kids, high blood pressure, etc etc etc. I love her and don't want that for her."

Whew. Yeah, the love just oozes in this post. By the way, you can still squirt a kid even if you hose down truckloads of potato chips, so you can relax about that.

"Also I have been to France, I even studied there for two years...my grandmother still lives there and my mom was born there. And for all your information THERE ARE REALLY NO FAT PEOPLE IN FRANCE. Go walk around a street in Paris and then go walk around some mall in Virginia and there is an OBVIOUS, OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE."

Yep, there's a difference with those funny accents and all...

If there's this magical "no fat people" charm in France, maybe you should just move your sister there?

However, I think that 1) you're wrong about there being not a single fatty in all of France. Really wrong 2) If you've read "French Women Don't Get Fat" or whatever that tripe is called, you'll understand that reason that author maintains her skeletor frame is because she eats a bite of a cookie, sips her wine, and says, "Oh...eez not good enough...I'm full...." In other words: Anorexia worked for her, French or not. I'm sure it'll work just fine for your sis, too.



"Whatever"

Now THAT'S what you should say when your sister tries to confide in you about her body hatred. A simple, 'whatever, you're cool, I love you," might supersize her respect and trust and maybe then you will stop doing more harm than good.

Anonymous said...

Esther said: What good is calorie counting then? Will your daily 5k run/walks help you? I pretty sure the last thing that you think before leaving this earth won't be "Oh, no. I had more than 10 carbs today".

Yeah, you're right, I could probably stop running all those miles and watch more TV, I'll die eventually whether I'm 170 or 450 pounds..

But what about between now and then? One of my friends is a human resources manager, he told me pointblank if you don't fit in his chairs you don't get the job. If you're a morbidly obese woman you'll probably be underemployed most of your life if you can find work. Good luck finding HR people who don't dismiss you outright as lazy and incompetent.

And when I do get hit by a car, I'll have health insurance. Try qualifying for that when you're morbidly obese.

When the paramedics arrive, they'll actually be able to lift me onto a stretcher. You think an average sized couple can lift somone who's 450lbs? You think having them wait for a special ambulance that can accomodate you is going to help your chances of survival?

After I wind up in the hospital, they won't have to use a near lethal dose of anaesthesia to get me under. My dad was a surgeon for 20 years. Smokers and the obese are an anaesthesiologists worst nightmares.

Any complications you have if you survive surgery will be immediately attributed to your weight. Good luck arguing that with your doctors. Meanwhile my doctors will be working overtime to give me optimal treatment since they've filed me under "athlete".

So, considering all that, maybe the 5K daily runs aren't such a hassle anyway..

Sick Of Horrible People said...

Anonymous at 2:22...

GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU PIECE OF SHIT...I feel horribly sorry for people like you who think they make themselves look better by trashing other people's insecurities...you're a real piece of work.

Anonymous said...

Sick of horrible people said: "GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU PIECE OF SHIT..."

Ooooh.. hit a nerve.. did we?

No pithy comeback? No talking points from the NAAFA or ISAA websites? Guess you're realizing all the stuff I said is true - otherwise we wouldn't need fat rights groups, would we?

Thanks for playing, but welcome to reality. Life sucks if you're morbidly obese.. get used to it..

Esther said...

To our favorite anonymous:
You know what, sweetheart? I can't figure it out. Why are you here? And don't tell me that you care about fat people's health because we both know that is a load of crap. Does it make you feel more like a men when you talk down to people? Is your dick so small that to make yourself feel big, you must cut down others?
Maybe that's why your are too much of a chicken shit to use your real name.

Anonymous said...

esther said: "You know what, sweetheart? I can't figure it out. Why are you here?"

I actually explained it in detail in a previous post (it was before the post where I said you all were intellectually lazy - LOL). I bought into all the NAAFA BS for quite a while myself, and it's a very tempting argument - "you can't change, so accept yourself". Unfortunately, it's just sour grapes from a bunch of morbidly obese women who've tried and failed repeatedly, and it's keeping a lot of people from seeing their own potential.

I'm not here for you failure acceptance people - you are just as pinheaded and reluctant to open your eyes as all the other FA's in your cloistered members-only discussion groups. What kind of gall does it take to say that a 800lb man should not focus on weight loss, because it is irrelevant to overall health? How dumb do you have to be to say "I'm going to die anyway, so I might as well do anything I want"?

The reason I'm here is that the blog's authors are admittedly fat ambivalent. I believe part of the explosion in WLS is due to people like NAAFA going around and telling everyone in a shrill voice "95% failed, you'll fail too!!" I'm part of the 5%, so I go around telling people to expect to succeed. Just a different viewpoint, but an important one. See, there are a LOT of us out here in the real world who have actually put in the time and effort to get down to normal weight and maintain it. And as long as we're out here telling OUR stories, most people realize most of your hypothyroidism-SSRI-setpoint-genetics excuses are crap.

Fortunately, my job here is done! All your insecurities have exploded into plain view (thanks for your invaluable contributions Esther), and all your arguments have dissolved into profanity and ad hominem attacks. The silent bystanders get to see that most of your logic wouldn't make sense to a brain-damaged test monkey. I believe in leaving on a high note, and I don't think it gets better than this, so if you need to respond further you can find me on misc.fitness.weights (it's a group for people who work out with weights.. oh, never mind.. )

Anonymous said...

That Dude Who Cares So Very Much About Our Health said: Any complications you have if you survive surgery will be immediately attributed to your weight. Good luck arguing that with your doctors. Meanwhile my doctors will be working overtime to give me optimal treatment since they've filed me under "athlete".

Ooooh, we have a celebrity in our midst! Who knew that Barry Bonds would take the time to post here in between Depowhatever shots?

Barry, I didn't throw that syringe at you last night in San Diego. Honest.

I'd never do something like that, in fact, because I believe in your body = your business. You want to load up on fake hormones to have a tummy you can bounce horsefeathers offa, have at it. Far be it from me to tell you what you should do with the precious spare time you're given, and if dealing face to face with actual human beings is too much of a bother for you, I'd much rather you spent four hours a day in the gym than try to practice your crippled social skills out there in The Scary Scary Real World. We can settle for admiring your fab abs and terrifying biceps, triceps, quadriceps, quintupriceps, sextupriceps, etc., from the comfortable distance we doughy plebes are meant to remain at.

However, you're right that our health care sucks large quantities of dirty gravel compared to yours, Barry, and you're entitled to gloat about it. Having private health care, your own personal doctor to minister to your personal needs instead of having to shoo you out of the office when the 7-minute HMO timer is up, must be the shizzle.

But my doctors do a pretty good job with me in those 7 minutes, and they don't bug me about my weight (about 5'3", 200), because -- unlike you -- they are familiar with my medical history. They actually treat me as an individual, not as a statistic based solely on random groups of numbers -- how about that? Meanwhile, my 5'2", 110-pound mother has to scour the universe for a gynecologist who isn't a total pill-pushing squeege. Luck of the draw, I guess, when you're in the managed-care system that all we non-celebrities get tossed into. Wah!

You're SO lucky you don't have to deal with that, Barry. It must be nice to be so special. Immortal, even. If you're rich enough, you even get the choose the hour of your own death. And maybe ours too! I'm sooo jealous! I want some of those drugs you're on!

It will take every moral fiber I have in me not to fling a syringe at you (after I buy some, of course -- I don't normally have 'em lying around) when I see you jogging past me with your quints gleaming in the midday sun because I want to be like you so very very badly and I will never get that chance because of my inborn indolence.

But restrain myself I will. Because I do believe in karma, and I believe the time I spend being a better friend, lover, musician, and citizen will more than make up for all that time I don't spend working out and obsessing about food. And good citizens don't fling syringes at others, even if they are total di--er, excuse me, temporarily unenlightened.

Anonymous said...

But my doctors do a pretty good job with me in those 7 minutes, and they don't bug me about my weight (about 5'3", 200), because

g-damn!! 5'3, 200, what are you, like a sphere?!! Honey, you need to get off the keyboard and do some crunches!!!

Anonymous said...

To the person who said this:

"However, I think that 1) you're wrong about there being not a single fatty in all of France. Really wrong 2) If you've read "French Women Don't Get Fat" or whatever that tripe is called, you'll understand that reason that author maintains her skeletor frame is because she eats a bite of a cookie, sips her wine, and says, "Oh...eez not good enough...I'm full...." In other words: Anorexia worked for her, French or not. I'm sure it'll work just fine for your sis, too. "


HAHAHA. You're funny. This is the kind of full on lie that overweight people tell themselves. That skinny people don't eat. Sorry folks, skinny people eat NORMALLY.

Like I said, I lived in France and my family is from france. And my grandmother and mother EAT and are both wonderful cooks and have never been overweight. What they wouldn't do is touch potato chips, coke, mcdonald's or other american CRAP with a 10 foot pole.

----------------------------

Difference in French and American women's eating in the evening:

A french women eats 2 slices of fresh bagette with real butter and some real brie.---100 calories

An American woman eats 4 fatty cheese breads when the come to the table without thinking. Oh yeah, she dips them in the extra cheese sauce and spreads them with margerine.---400 calories


A french women eats a small filet minon with a side of fresh vegetables with a glass of good red wine. She takes her time and enjoys her meal.---900 calories


An American women eats a huge plate of pasta with cream sauce existing of 4 portions.---2000 calories

For dessert a french women eats an entire Crème Brûlée and later has a snack of a pear and some cheese. ---350 calories

For dessert the American woman has nothing..she's "being good" because she's on a "diet". Later when she goes home she feels denied so she eats half a box of Fig Newtons (so healthy! :P)and drinks 3 diet cokes. ---550 calories

--------------------------------

So, in one evening of "normal eating", the French women has collected 1,350 calories (certainly not starving) and the American 2,950.

The French woman had better food, enjoyed it more and when you multiply that times 360 days a year is likely not fat, while the American with her eating habits is.

Anonymous said...

Oooh, is there still the Burger King on the Champs-Elysées? Beer with a Brie-topped Whopper! Grande nourriture!

Anonymous said...

"Oh, like the eating disorder clinics the principal majority of whose patients are UNDER-, not overweight?"

-Alright, whoa....I think this blog is awesome; it's great to have a place where people can celebrate being large sized...but slow down here. I've noticed, not only in this blog, but in others, that there is a profound anti-thin-person feel. While I understand the harsh reaction to the complete post I've quoted above (I wanted to slap her, too), you need to be careful not to discriminate against other body sizes/shapes, or you undermine your complete agenda. If you are advocating acceptance of body size, be aware that limiting that to only YOUR body size only furthers a fractured view as the "fat people" vs. the "thin people".

And I don't know where you're posting from, but in many places (and I am speaking from personal experience) insurance companies WILL NOT fund eating disorder treatment, unless the person is pretty much dead anyway. Just for further information.

Jan said...

Anon who bikes, you are an idiot. You have no idea how human metabolism works. Besides medication, there are also thyroid disorders, insulin resistance, and other endocrine disorders that can contradict your beloved Law of Thermodynamics. Not to mention that things like low-carb diets and the Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load have long proven that "a calorie is not a calorie". People can eat thousands of calories while in ketosis and lose weight. People can eat up to 800 calories more on a GI diet and still lose weight. These same people might not lose weight on a high-carb, low-fat, 1,500 calorie a day diet. So much for Thermodinamics...

Maybe you should go to some bodybuilding sites and I don't know, read some articles, since you worship bodybuilders so much. I'm glad you went all Single White Female on your roommate and became Just Like Him, but you have to stay updated.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Francophile biking dude, that's some pretty serious anger you have towards American women. The contempt just drips from every sentence. Are you really so sure we all eat "like that" day after day, that we're just greedy slobs who don't know how to stop stuffing ourselves? Would it bother you as much if we went to puke ourselves after that Typical American Meal and thus retained that oh-so-coveted French slenderness you so worship?

Incidentally, I haven't eaten a meal like the "American" one you describe in years, and I'm quite round. But even if I did, why the hostility? Why do you so resent the thought of women eating what they want to?

If your sister was in a wheelchair because of a car accident instead of simply being fat, would it bother you nearly as much that she couldn't keep up with your super-athleticness on a hike? Even if she was the one at fault? Even if she'd been driving drunk?

And if you're going to give the ad hominem "but fat people cost their me, their fellow taxpayer, so much money," just remember this: Everyone, if they live long enough, is going to cost "the health care system" plenty sooner or later. People living to be 95 and dying in their sleep without taking any medications, having any surgeries, or treating any health problems at all are almost nonexistent. The longer you live, statistically speaking, the more doctors you'll see and the more meds you'll be on. (And yes, plenty of fat people live well into their 80s; I work in health care and encounter them all the time.) And chances are, if you're a super jock, at some point you'll have an injury to your knee or back, and that will cost a pretty penny just for diagnosis; one MRI alone costs more than all the meds I take in five years combined.

Not to mention that if you don't ratchet that anger down a few notches, you'll be setting yourself up for a stroke. Not that I'd wish that upon you to the degree you apparently wish early death on us, but still...it's out there, froggy baby.

Buffpuff said...

Fortunately, my job here is done!

Oh, is it indeed? Well thank fuck for that. And what exactly was your mission, Anonymous? To browbeat and brand as "head-up-your-ass, intellectually lazy, morons" a group of people who just don't happen to share your world view? To rubbish and negate their personal experience? This passes for motivational speaking to the "fat ambivalent" in your universe, does it? Riiiight. And I'm supposed to be the "pinhead" here? You'll forgive me if I ask you to bite me.

All you've succeeded in doing here is highlighting the well-known prejudices and indignities fat people are subjected to daily, while simultaneously personifying some of the least attractive traits of humanity. You're not some glorious avenging angel fighting for all that's righteous, Anonymous. You're a bully. And if anything is likely to get a cowed fat person running to a bariatric surgeon, it's more likely to be a gutful of taunts from an intolerant jackass like you, than exposure to NAAFA.

(And, excuse me? Hello? 800 lb man? Um - what 800 lb man? Do we have an 800 lb man in the house? Ohhhhh, silly me - he was just a bit of hypothetical hyperbole to contest a point nobody here had actually made; a sledgehammer to crack a non-existent nut).

Listen up, Anon. You want to cycle up the north face of the Eiger every day to keep that patronising arse of yours in trim? That's your right and your privilege. The same goes for anyone else who wants to restrict their calorie intake for the rest of their life and/or hit the gym seven days a week in the pursuit of physical perfection. Fair play to them. Though I strongly doubt many such individuals will be lurking on a blog frequented by "fat acceptors(sic)". I therefore fail to see how my choosing to live my life the way my experience has taught me is right for me is going to put a spoke in their wheel. Especially with the likes of you cheeering them on like a square-bashing squaddie, to say nothing of the oppressive weight of decades of social conditioning.

Failure acceptance, to use your perjorative phrase, is not the same as self acceptance - because failure implies a deep sense of shame and worthlessness. I notice you didn't respond to my post about recidivism. Perhaps this is because you know it to be perfectly true. You stop devoting your life to rigorous exercise, you'll put on all that nasty, hateful weight back on again, won't you? And that, to you, would constitute failure. Me? Well I chose to get off the self-loathing, diet-go-round 20 years ago so I no longer share your value system. I love myself unconditionally. And that, more than anything else, (to reiterate a point I made to Kiss My Formerly Imaginary Fat Ass earlier), obviously really gets your goat. As does the fact I refuse wholeheartedly to accept that being an athlete makes you morally superior to me. All it does is make you a better athlete. Well, newsflash, chummie, I don’t want to be an athlete. I’m more than happy being a writer and university lecturer, ta very much, and I’d thank you not to insult my intelligence again.

Fat is not a moral issue. It's a physical characteristic – and one of many which define me at that. I don't need to "find excuses" – or offer any – to defend my stance on it, least of all to some drive-by, fat-baiting troll. I don't have to "try harder" to transform my body into your idea of perfection. My body is not your concern.

Lastly, re: there really are no fat people in France posted by Anonymous-with-the-sister, (poor thing).

You really are talking absolute drivel. There may well be no fat forbears in your own froggy lineage but I suggest you stick Allegro Fortissimo.com into your browser right now and you'll see more big, fat, attitudinous Frenchwomen than you can shake a stick at. I come from England, by the way. We have fat people here too.

Toodles. It’s been real.

Anonymous said...

There are tons of fat and obese people in England. England isn't France.


French women take incredible pride in their appearance and eating habits. It's not some genetic thing. It's an entire culture that eats well, walks and bikes everywhere, and truely enjoys their food.

Like I said, I lived in France for 2 years. I saw how my family and girls I met there ate. Quite a lot actually, for hours! If you compare it to America, where people just shove pizza and hamburgers down their faces as they walk down the street it really is superior.



I think it's funny Americans act like they are the only culture in the whole world. That eating and exercize has "not much" to do with weight gain. All you need to do is stand on a busy street corner in Paris and West Virginia and count all the fat people to see the sickness in the way Americans eat.

Anonymous said...

Buffpuff said: All you've succeeded in doing here is highlighting the well-known prejudices and indignities fat people are subjected to daily, while simultaneously personifying some of the least attractive traits of humanity.

And many of you have an overwhemling prejudice towards people who lose weight. It makes me so angry when "over weight" people get on my ass for losing weight and having WLS. "Oh you're just doing it to conform to society! You should just love yourself as you are!" Thats fucking bullshit. I was dying, and so are many of you. You are just to blind to see it.

I have NEVER heard so many rationalizations, excuses, etc in my life in one place. My doctor is one of the world's leading Bariactric specialists. He has published numerous, non-surgery related papers on obesity. And you know what? MOST of his research boils down to one simple fact: Most obese people take in too many calories for their metabolism to handle. Yes there are exceptions, BUT MOST PEOPLE do not fit into those! It is impossible that ALL of people posting here fit into the 'medical obesity' category.

I don't care of you want to stay obese, thats fine. But don't rationalise it. Don't bend science to your cause, when truly if you do journal research, it doesn't support it.

Anonymous said...

Dear French Fry:

Just because some people aren't buying your retarded assumption that there are no fat Frenchies doesn't mean that we think "America is the only culture."

OK, you lived in France for 2 years. You've said that, like, 7 gazillion times. Duly noted.

Pity any American woman who tries to date you and compete with Mama and Gran.

So why don't you go back to your little Garden of Eden where no ugly or fat women ever got in your sight? What happened? Did the French government kick you out for stalking? I can't imagine how else you spent those two years, especially if you say you know how EVERY French woman eats...that's a lot of window peeping, mon cherie.

Anonymous said...

Um, I'm female. I lived in France from age 19-21 as an exchange student. My family still lives there (my mom's side).

When I am talking about the difference between french and american women, I mean young women.

In France I was at university for 2 years, in America 2 years. In France we had nice dinners before or after nights of dancing. The girls I met ALL ate, healthy food and fine food. Not much during the morning or evening, but we often got together for HUGE meals on the weekends.

In America I lived in the dorm one year. Everyone ate like pigs. We went out to dinner all the time and the portions were huge, we ordered pizza, we drank tons of beer. Many girls ate for comfort, everyone complained about their weight as they sucked down Taco Bell.

There were so many differences. Too bad you all just want to flame me instead of believing there are healthy female eaters in other places in the world.

Anonymous said...

"Too bad you all just want to flame me instead of believing there are healthy female eaters in other places in the world."

Too bad you want to continue spewing insulting overgeneralizations of American women (excuse me, young American women) based on a few gals you knew in your dorm instead of believing that, gee, if these fatties just got a clue and ate like the French, there wouldn't be a problem.

Of course healthy eaters exist in other cultures. They exist in America, too (even, gasp, on college campuses)!

There is no "perfect eating plan" for everyone. How would you like it if someone approached you about high cholesterol and said, "um...the Japanese have got this cholesterol thing all figured out, now stop eating Brie and Creme Brulee and get yourself a sushi chef, pronto!"

Anyway, you carry on hating fat American women, even if you think you're doing them a favor by telling them to eat like the French. It's obviously something you enjoy, along with your fine, fine, food.

Cheerio!

Anonymous said...

"Too bad you want to continue spewing insulting overgeneralizations of American women (excuse me, young American women) based on a few gals you knew in your dorm instead of believing that, gee, if these fatties just got a clue and ate like the French, there wouldn't be a problem."

I see I've snarfed down too much Taco Bell and pasta again...

That should have said,

Too bad you want to continue spewing insulting overgeneralizations of American women (excuse me, young American women) based on a few gals you knew in your dorm instead of *challenging your belief* that, gee, if these fatties just got a clue and ate like the French, there wouldn't be a problem.

Sarah said...

Here's another thing: Do you really think all American women can afford to buy fine food and take hours to eat it? It's a different culture here. If you hate it so much, you can always go back to France. Just because it's different doesn't make it superior or inferior. Being so obsessed with lookism is unhealthy no matter where you are.

Also, you might find that people in a similar geographic region have similar genetic traits. People in Portugal tend to be short. I'm 5'10" and taller than many men here. We tend to have a range of body types. And you know what? People here eat long meals and walk or bike everywhere, too. So your ASSumption that fat people just don't eat or exercise right doesn't hold water.

Buffpuff said...

There are tons of fat and obese people in England. England isn't France

Yes, Anonymous. I know. I've lived in England all my life, which is quite some considerable time, and I too find it irksome when certain Americans "act like they are the only culture in the whole world". Since it appeared to me that your pitch on behalf of the French Tourist Board was entirely geared towards your fellow Americans, I thought I'd just mention the fact I'm a Brit. In addition I'd like to say that being fat has never prevented me from taking immense pride in my appearance or enjoying - and cooking - good food. Also, I don't have a car or a bike so I walk a lot. Dang, I could almost be French! Well, aside from these dratted love handles.

To Anonymous, ('Gaw' blind ol' Riley! as we Cockneys are wont to exclaim. My head is fairly spinning with all the nameless folk who post here), who quoted me to prove a point of his/her own: I think you'll find that most of the expletives uttered thus far by extremely pissed off fat people were in response to playground taunts from people who came here for no other reason than to ridicule, sermonise, quote dodgy science and call us ugly names.

I myself have nothing against thin people. Some of my best friends are quite slender. Most of them in fact. And most of them, incidentally, have spent their lives thoroughly disliking their bodies, convinced that they'll never be thin enough. We live in a culture which actively encourages self-hatred and dissatisfaction and makes an obscene amount of financial gain from it. It is sick, evil and pernicious, especially when turned outward on people who could have been - or, in some cases, have been – you, (or me). I am proud that, after 20 years, I can see it very clearly for what it is – trivial and life-sapping.

I am truly sorry if you often find yourself criticised or defamed by strident fat-activists for choosing the bariatric surgery route - but it's only self-hatred which makes them act that way. Just as it's self-hatred which makes some dickwad who doesn't know the first thing about me, assert they're worthier for buying into a value system I have chosen to reject. Besides, it must make a refreshing change from being branded stupid, lazy, smelly etc ad frigging nauseam by journalists, chat-show hosts, stand-up comedians, uninspired novelists and script writers, bogus health experts, prejudiced doctors, immature men looking for a casual shag, and "well-meaning" total strangers. If nothing else, I'll bet it happens far less frequently.

People get fat for all sorts of reasons. Some people choose to make peace with their bodies that way. Some people choose to wage war on their bodies all their lives. As for "bending science" to any specific cause – I find science is rather like the Bible in the way that bigots can extract random bits they like the sound of and use them to shore up their dislike of anyone who falls outside what they believe to be the acceptable societal norm. Science also contradicts itself repeatedly. Bariatric surgery is not as common in the UK as it is in the US, but you'll forgive me if I am not entirely impressed by your bariatric surgeon's view of the matter, because...hello? Bariatric surgeon. I rather think he might have his own reasons for keeping the facts, as he perceives and promotes them, nice and simple. It is, after all, how he earns his living.

Anonymous said...

"I am beautiful, no matter what they say. Words can't bring me down. I am beautiful in every single way." All 225 pounds of me! No, words can't bring me down! I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you! Mwaaahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! From: the Phat fat lady!

Frances said...

Supposedly Frankish Fiend:

1,350cal in ONE evening is quite a lot for our wee petite 5'2" 110 lb lady to take in. Unless, of course, she didn't eat anything all day.

You are claiming to be a nutrition and fitness "expert." Get a clue, Einstien, you obviously have no idea about calorie intake/output.

(Oh, BTW, I'm one of those former fattys. I am at a healthy weight....I lost 105lbs. And you know what.......I DON'T bash these, or any other women. What anyone does with their bodies is their choice. And I can GUARANTEE that all these women have heard the same ol' diet speil from a thousand other sources before. Consider your negative work already done for you by society at large).


And I'm French to and have been to France. Guess what? There are fattys there too! And that was only 6 weeks ago. Must have realllly gone American since you were there...........

Anonymous said...

Buffpuff, good post and well thought out, but how come noone says a peep when "jan" posts this kind of stuff:

"Besides medication, there are also thyroid disorders, insulin resistance, and other endocrine disorders that can contradict your beloved Law of Thermodynamics."
"So much for Thermodinamics... (sic)"

Now, come on, buffpuff, from your writing you're pretty smart, and I actually agree with most of your post, but you really want us to believe that Jan has found exceptions to the laws of "thermodinamics" on a kilocalorie scale?? I think that's the kind of blatant nonsense that gives the other side all the ammo they need.

Your worst enemy isn't the trolls here - it's the fat people who make your whole movement look stupid by not understanding basic physics

Esther said...

Okay. Why is this suddenly a war, complete with ememies and ammo? You would think that with all the more important things going on in the world (the Bush administration, genetric research, getting the city of New Orleans back to the way it was, as well as half a million other things), weight loss and "fat/skinny bashing" would be the last thing on everyone's mind but no. It's really sad.

Shasta MacNasty said...

This post confirms my previous thoughts that I have to live my life for me, on my terms. Anyone else can join me, love me, or get the hell out of my way.

I, too, am annoyed that some make the stretch of saying that fat people are selfish. Right. So I guess Nicole Richie is Mother Theresa. Wait...no...that's Paris Hilton.


:::groan:::

Anonymous said...

"1,350cal in ONE evening is quite a lot for our wee petite 5'2" 110 lb lady to take in. Unless, of course, she didn't eat anything all day."


Well, point is, you're allowed to eat whatever you want as long as you take it light twice a day like they honest to god really do in places like France, Germany, etc.

It just makes so much more sense. No where but in America is it considered normal to eat a 1,000 calorie breakfast, a 1,000 calorie lunch and then have a 2,000 calorie dinner.

The problem I see with a lot of people in America is they really think they neeed a LOT of food. For example I lived with a girl who always bought the low fat and low calorie stuff, but never lost weight. Here is another example in the different ways we would eat the same thing:


Brunch:

Me--Half a large fresh bagel with real cream cheese, lox, and capers. Coffee with real cream and sugar.

Her--3 "low fat mini bagels" with non fat cream cheese, coffee with fake sugar and non dairy creamer.

We both get the same amount of calories. Which would you rather eat? Something really delicious or something "low fat" that you can eat more of?

It seems like being satisfied is more in the taste and quality of the food in other cultures and in America it's the AMOUNT of food. Diet food doesn't work because it's pretty disgusting and you never feel satisfied, you just eat more of it, etc.

I'm not being mean, I'm just making observations.

Buffpuff said...

Thanks for the compliment on my post, Anonymous. Good to know that, if nothing else, I might have disabused somebody of the notion that all fat people are stupid.

Since I don't even know Jan, I'm not sure why it's incumbent on me to defend or better articulate her views – but, Ill-expressed or not, I feel she makes some valid points. Certain medications, thyroid or endocrine disorders, insulin resistance etc. can have an impact on weight gain, where that weight might be stored on the body and whether or not it's retained, regardless of diet and/or exercise. Numerous other factors, such as poverty, disability, genetics, long-term illness, stop-start dieting, depression and eating disorders also have an impact on body-size....and, if you want to add greed, apathy and/or a sedentary lifestyle to the list, then be my guest. They can certainly be contributors too – as can a combination of several of the above.

Alas, I'm not a doctor, physicist, sociologist or statistician, but for anyone seriously interested in studies on fat and health, I refer you to www.bigfatfacts.com You may not necessarily agree with everything that's been posted there but may rest assured it's been researched by people eminently more qualified to talk about the scientific aspect of this argument than me.

I feel, however, it needs reiterating that health per se, is a red herring in the context of this thread. Almost every fat person who has attempted to discuss their own experiences around food, dieting, medication, exercising etc has been roundly accused of lying, failing or simply "not trying hard enough" to conform to the standards of those mouthing off at them. Dunno about you, Anonymous, but I tend to find that people who genuinely care about the physical wellbeing of others are generally a little less negative and slightly more... um... well, caring. Indeed, in this day and age. one might even have expected a more holistic overview; I'm sure you'll agree that being the focus of contempt, derision and disgust expressed by complete and utter strangers is not exactly beneficial – or indeed conducive – to anyone's mental health. Nor, in my opinion, is it indicative of an entirely balanced mind in the case of the expressee. If someone is genuinely happy with the way they look and feel and conform to society's expectations, why would they feel compelled to assert their superiority over others they deem to be less fortunate than themselves?

So...I'll say it again: this thread is about aesthetics. The whole Craigslist experiment which kicked it off was about aesthetics. The employment of lame, clichéd stereotypes to justify hostility; the accusations of lying to ourselves and each other when speaking our individual truths; the mindless lumping-together of every fat person on this site, ("just sour grapes from a bunch of morbidly obese women who've tried and failed repeatedly" Excuse me? Says who?!); the endless repetition of the word "normal" – has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for anybody's well being.

What I actually see here is fear. Fear that fat acceptance might become a movement or a force to be reckoned with. Fear that if everyone began to accept that a wide diversity of body shapes and sizes occurs quite naturally in society, all those years of rigorous denial and self-discipline might seem, in retrospect, to have been better spent on more fulfilling or enjoyable pursuits. Well all ye who harbour such dystopian visions can relax - that's not going to happen any time soon. The fat community is currently too fractured to take to the streets as one, much less at a global level. (Decades of oppression and marginalisation will do that to certain sectors of society). But that doesn't mean we can't strive to make a difference individually. For some that might involve starting a support network with a view to encouraging activism or nurturing self-esteem. For somebody else it might simply be a matter of finding the courage to wear bright red after a lifetime of hiding apologetically in the shadows. It's all good. It all, in my opinion, helps the whole of society, even if they might not appreciate it yet.

You are right, Anonymous, my worst enemies are not the witless and sanctimonious trolls who post here. It's those who continue to sell them the ammo by perpetuating those tired old stereotypes and flogging everyone a narrowly defined physical ideal which seems to drop a dress size with every decade.

Self hatred and impossible ideals are damaging physically, mentally and spiritually to society as a whole. The active promotion of self-hatred - and fat-hatred in particular - makes publishers, bariatric surgeons, cod-nutritionists, diet gurus and gyms very very rich. And before anyone accuses me of "promoting" ill-health and/or obesity, I am NOT implying it's wrong for people to eat a well-balanced diet or exercise – or even to become athletes, dancers, sportspeople or personal trainers if that happens to be their bag. That's fab. You're poetry in motion and good luck to you. What I'm saying is: the more people are brainwashed to dislike themselves the more likely they are to queue up and line these shysters' coffers, regardless of whether they are fat or not. And since stringent diet and exercise regimes are soul-sappingly monotonous to keep up for life and only serve to keep the poundage at bay if practiced for life, more people will continue to damage their metabolisms by yo-yo dieting, society will continue to get fatter as a whole, the insecure will continue to be viciously cruel to those who represent what they fear they will become...and our ill-named Health and Fitness industry will carry right on cleaning up.

It may interest US citizens to know that in the UK, there is no such thing as an adult size 0 or 2 or 4 or 6 to be found in our clothing stores - not even in our petite ranges. That's because these are generally considered to be the proportions of a prepubescent child. Equally, you will rarely see examples of extremely fat people in the UK - i.e the 400lb+ fictional West Virginians our Francophile friend keeps wittering on about. Don't you think there might possibly be some correlation between the ever-shrinking physical ideal and the knock-on effects of lives spent attempting to achieve it?

Lastly, Anonymous, (Francophile by any chance? It's so hard to tell when you're all called the same damn thing), in reply to your question regarding the half a bagel with cream cheese, smoked salmon and capers versus the three baby, low-fat bagels with low-fat howsyourfather, fake sugar, fake cream etc.? I'll take a whole fresh bagel, thanks, with just a little regular cream cheese, a generous helping of lox, (oily fish: great for the joints and yummy too), a squeeze of fresh lemon juice, hold the capers, some freshly ground black pepper and perhaps a strawberry and banana smoothie to accompany it. Then I'd like to completely forget about food, (never mind what foreigners and folk who are fatter than me happen to be eating), until the next time I happen to be hungry and get on with my bloody life.

Avery Ray Colter said...

Two things...

Someone wrote a metaphor about not wanting to be with the fat gazelle who can't outrun the lion.

There is a book called "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers", the core point of which is that while a zebra will be highly stressed while actually being chased by a lion, that same zebra will not spend all the other time racked with anxiety about when he will be chased next. That fact can be extended to the current topic by saying that there are attitudes about fatness which are themselves morbid, and losing those attitudes can go a long way to improving health as well.

Nor is fat-acceptance about not changing anything. Chronic disease risk is a product of many different factors. If there are a dozen things you can do, obviously doing ten of them is better than doing nothing. That is where fat-acceptance has been going recently from what I can see. Certainly the past few NAAFA conventions I've gone to have had very many workshops on exercises adapted to larger bodies.

I'll be the first to say not everything is perfect with those organizations. I've been saying for a long time that I don't think they engage in enough direct action. And they certainly could do a better job of keeping the web site maintained and people informed of particulars of HAES research. These ideas should be brought to the people more consistently and be prepared to engage constructively with the kind of critics we see here. Every movement evolves and learns, and has crises and improvements, and this one certainly is no exception.

Anonymous said...

People just don't think much beyond appearances, numbers and labels. It's an acceptable prejudice. Being fat scares people so non-fat people don't try to identify with fat people for one second.

It goes to show that you should never tell your weight to someone. I weighed 130 in high school and was told by my bf (who apparently spread that stat around) that "no one thought I was 130," because I looked thinner. I now weigh close to 180 and have dealt with an overactive thyroid disorder, medication, job stress and other issues. I'm not as active or as healthy of an eater as I could be but I'm an intellectual with a sense of humor and a pretty face.

I'm especially glad that I don't live in Los Angeles--where 115 is overweight. I think that without these common, soul-sucking labels of overweight and obese being thrown around on a daily basis, we would all be more comfortable in our own skins.

Jsygurl said...

Hi everyone,

The comments on this post are very thought provoking. After reading through it all a couple of days ago, I can’t get some of the writers out of my mind.

I think about Anon of the French heritage who has a sister who has gained weight, and how they have clearly spent their childhood very aware of each other’s body size. I lived in a weight obsessed household, and feel for both of them. I do not understand how Anon could spend two years in France and see no fat people, as there are a lot of hefty men about. I mean, what about Gerard Depardieu?

I have also been thinking a lot about the Anon guy who goes on 5000 calorie bike rides. I have heard of 30 mile bike rides (been on a few myself), and 2 hour bike rides (ditto), but this is the first time I have heard a bike ride described in terms of the calories burnt. However, I think this Anon has a point. I know that if I exercised fanatically and only ate the mere basics to sustain life, I would loose weight. However, I choose not to, as I believe that I can spend the time and energy that I would need to devote to the pursuit of a slimmer figure in much wiser, and less selfish ways. I am heavily engaged in raising my family, for instance, and I also give a lot of time to various voluntary and charity organisations.

However, before taking on Anon’s demanding way of life I would have to be convinced that it would give me real health benefits. I have a 40 history of yo-yo dieting, back in the days before the dangers of yo-yo dieting were known. Now I know the dangers, and am aware that I may have cut 10 years off my life by the diets I have been on, I am very keen to protect the health I have left. My immune system has always been weak, but now I know that this is to be expected in someone who has been on diets since the age of 5 months old. As you can imagine, I am very distrustful of anyone claiming to sell me the same old guff that has permanently damaged my health. So, Anon will have to continue his punishing lifestyle without me.

Yes, I believe in exercise, and yes, I believe in a healthy diet. If that doesn’t get me slim, oh well. It is much more important to me that I spend as many years as possible with my children, and perhaps grandchildren, than what size dress I fit into.

buffpuff said...

...been on diets since the age of 5 months old.

Oh, my god, jsygurl, who on earth would do that to a baby, for pity's sake...and furthermore, why?!

I remember seeing a three year old put on a diet once on a TV documentary and I remember wanting to weep for the poor little soul. But 5 months. Ye gods and little fishes. That is so out of order it beggars belief.

Anonymous said...

jsygurl -- "I know that if I exercised fanatically and only ate the mere basics to sustain life, I would loose weight."

I didn't read that post the same way - I think the 5000 cal number was to compare against walking. I think the point was that input and output had to be balanced on an individual basis.

If you exercised fanatically, then you would have to eat quite a bit. So if you're expending 5000 cal a day and only consuming 3500, you'll lose weight. Not practical for almost all of us, but still true.

francophile(?) -- you could be more tactful, but you're correct. 99% of obesity/overweight is caused by the American lifestyle. I visited Madras (India) for 6 months on business, ate really well, but lost about 30lbs. It was because the food was mostly vegetarian and low fat, and they eat smaller meals there.

Coworker went on an Ornish diet after they found artery blockage. She didn't care about weight loss really but wound up losing a LOT just because of the diet. Had been moderately heavy all her life but now she's actually slightly underweight. don't know much about the details - you can eat as much as you want on that one but only certain foods I think.

Very hard to beat the "lifestyle" though. A lot of the salads here have more calories than an entire meal in a different country. Plus most people eat meat or fish every single day of the week. If you've lived with it all your life you don't know what the alternatives are.

Anonymous said...

I'm the "France" chick..



Yes, above poster..I agree. A salad with dressing and coke at Mcdonald's is equal to a lean steak with a side of baked potatoes and glass of wine. I mean come on people, CHOOSE YOUR FOOD WISELY.

And I really don't understand why Americans aren't getting the fact that the rest of the world doesn't have their weight "issue" and therefore it is wrong. It is pretty famously wrong. When my French relatives came to visit one year they actually took a couple of descreet pictures of obese people. It sounds very rude and horrible, but they just don't have them in France and they are SOOOOO famous in America. They weren't laughing, more like amazed at how true the stereotype is. In France they would get medical care from the beginning to help with that issue before it got that out of hand, just like an anorexic would.

It's not like there aren't fat people in France or Germany or Switzerland or the Netherlands. There are just so much fewer and people look at them a little differently..like they have an eating disorder equal to anorexia. Humans are built basically the same with a few differences. You can't honestly say Americans have huge bones or something.

Anonymous said...

I'm the "France" chick..



Yes, above poster..I agree. A salad with dressing and coke at Mcdonald's is equal to a lean steak with a side of baked potatoes and glass of wine. I mean come on people, CHOOSE YOUR FOOD WISELY.

And I really don't understand why Americans aren't getting the fact that the rest of the world doesn't have their weight "issue" and therefore it is wrong. It is pretty famously wrong. When my French relatives came to visit one year they actually took a couple of descreet pictures of obese people. It sounds very rude and horrible, but they just don't have them in France and they are SOOOOO famous in America. They weren't laughing, more like amazed at how true the stereotype is. In France they would get medical care from the beginning to help with that issue before it got that out of hand, just like an anorexic would.

It's not like there aren't fat people in France or Germany or Switzerland or the Netherlands. There are just so much fewer and people look at them a little differently..like they have an eating disorder equal to anorexia. Humans are built basically the same with a few differences. You can't honestly say Americans have huge bones or something.

Anonymous said...

I'm a man of relatively normal weight married to a bbw. She's the person I love more than any other, and that's why I married her. The way I figured it, if I chose not to be with her because of her weight I'd be a coward. I decided to be a man and love her no matter what people say.

I can't believe how truly pathetic some of these guys are. They look at fat women and see problems with her "character" rather than her body. And all the while they can't see the truth in front of their faces: THEY are the ones with the character issues.

Being afraid to do things because of what your buddies will think is a character flaw. Treating human beings like insects simply because of the way they look is a character flaw. They are projecting. They think a fat woman is "selfish"? Um, excuse me, but what do you call people who are consumed with their own apperance and what others think of them? Selfish seems like a good word to me. And it doesn't describe any fat person I've ever known. It doesn't get any more selfish than the dudes who make comments like the ones above.

It is the character flaws of these shallow, weak-minded people that should be the focus of concern. Their prejudices and willfully ignorant preconceptions cause actual harm to fat girls (boys too) and only perpetuate the emotional issues that often accompany weight issues. They are the problem, not fat people.

antipath

Buffpuff said...

I didn't read that post the same way - I think the 5000 cal number was to compare against walking. I think the point was that input and output had to be balanced on an individual basis

Given the gentleman's predidiliction for pulling preposterous figures out of his backside, (let's not forget our friend, the invisible 800lb man), not to mention the supercilious tone he used, I think the 5000 cal number was to assert moral superiority over Julie and prove his point that fat people simply aren't trying hard enough to meet the rigorous standards he has chosen to impose on himself.

99% of obesity/overweight is caused by the American lifestyle

Aaargh! For the last time - America is not the only country on the face of the bloody planet. Nor is it the only one with fat people in it. And, unless you are the world's most clued-up sociologist, I'd like to know where and how you arrived at that proud, sweeping claim of 99%.

...most people eat meat or fish every single day of the week. If you've lived with it all your life you don't know what the alternatives are

Excuse me? Patronising much? (God, why am I even surprised at this juncture? Those "fat-people-are-dumb/ill-informed/nutritionally-ignorant"-stereotypes just keep coming and coming...)

I was brought up eating meat two to three times a day every day. Although I make a point of eating oily fish a couple of times a week, I haven't eaten meat in over a decade and have followed a predominantly vegetarian diet for the past 21 years. I rarely eat pre-prepared or fast food. It may also interest you to know that as well as fat British vegetarians, that much traditional Indian cuisine is actually pretty high in fats.

And Frankophile - I'm beginning to understand exactly why your sister binges in secret.

When my French relatives came to visit one year they actually took a couple of descreet pictures of obese people. It sounds very rude and horrible, but they just don't have them in France

From the sound of it your entire family are completely fixated with other people's weight! And you're not wrong. It's lamentably rude, smug and condescending.

And you really haven't googled allegrofortissimo.com yet, have you?

Antipath, you're a pure light shining in the unremitting gloom. Any more at home like you? :-)

Anonymous said...

buffpuff "Aaargh! For the last time - America is not the only country on the face of the bloody planet. Nor is it the only one with fat people in it.

Man alive, what do I need, like a trepanation drill to get this into your skull?

Ok, let's break this down into REAL simple terms. None of us are claiming that there are NO fat people in other countries. We are claiming that the PERCENTAGE of people in America who are obese is much higher than in other parts of the world. Even in countries which are genetically similar. I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Yes, I do realize that there are fat people in France. But look around you in Alabama and then look around you in Paris and see how MANY there are.

Your fellow Brits don't seem to be in too much agreement with you either, you might want to check this out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,708373,00.html

And yet again: there are many more fat people in Birmingham, Alabama than Denver, Colorado. If it's a genetics thing, how in the hell did that happen? Did the southerners somehow mutate in the course of the last couple of hundred years?? It's all the same gene pool - gee, maybe it's the diet and lifestyle after all!

Anonymous said...

Sheesh, Francophile Anonymous. Talk about your straw-woman argument. Absolutely no one here has said that all fat people are fat because of genetics, so you are arguing against a point that was never made in the first place.

What many of us are trying to tell you is that not all of us are fat for the exact same reason. Many of us dieted from a very young age and trashed our metabolisms in the process. Some of us have been on medications that fostered weight gain. You want us to admit that "most" fat people are fat solely because they stuff themselves and lie around the couch? I won't, for one reason and one reason alone: I don't know most fat people personally.

And guess what? Neither do you. Just because your sister has an ED doesn't mean every fat woman does. Just because you see fat people gorging themselves at buffets doesn't mean we all do that. If you knew one or two gay guys who screwed every man in sight without protection, and went to gay bars and saw rampant examples of priapistic behavior, would you use that as ammunition for the argument that gay men are inherently self-destructive? You're probably much too hip for that, yet you pull the same nonsense on us. It's pretty tiresome.

Anonymous said...

How is binge eating NOT an eating disorder?

Anorexia-eating nothing
Bulimia- eating and barfing
Binge Eating-eating lots of stuff high in calories all at once


Anorexia makes the human skinny, Bulimia makes them all messed up, and binge eating makes the human fat.

You can tell me that most overweight people do not have an eating disorder? It's just a lifestyle choice? If it is such a great choice why is it so hard on the body?

Diets are just lessons on how not to binge eat, right?

Anonymous said...

anon said: You want us to admit that "most" fat people are fat solely because they stuff themselves and lie around the couch? I won't, for one reason and one reason alone: I don't know most fat people personally.

Well, duh, I don't know a whole lot of French residents personally, but I can be reasonably confident that they speak French in France.

It's called research, Einstein. You can actually learn things by reading, not just by becoming close friends with every single person on the planet.

Yes, what we are trying to say is that a very large percentage of fat people in the United States are fat because of inadequate exercise and excessive calorie consumption.

Can't believe people think that's even worth debating.

Anonymous said...

OK, so let's say I do eat too much. Let's say I'm lazy. Let's say everything you say is absolutely right. Fine. I give up. No sense arguing with the majority. The majority is always right. They say white people need to have separate drinking fountains so we don't get the cooties from blacks, so...oops. Wrong decade, wrong circular argument. But anyway...

...let's get back to the original point of this post, which was that a lot of guys don't want to date fat chicks because of our ginormous out-of-control appetites for food and insufficient appetites for extensive fat-burning workouts. What you are telling us is that they are right to hate on us for that. That we don't deserve love, don't deserve respect, don't deserve even basic kindness simply because WE EAT TOO MUCH AND DON'T EXERCISE ENOUGH. That's sufficient reason to despise us, to be disgusted by us.

This is the most horrible thing you can say about a person? That she doesn't nibble daintily at her food, sip daintily at her wine, puff daintily at her cigarette (god help her if she doesn't drink or smoke, what will she do with herself then?), and maintain a figure sufficiently lightweight to be blown over with a nearby sneeze, means she deserves to be treated as subhuman? We deserve to have a guy say he would rather date a crackhead or child molester than us, if the crackhead or child molester was thin?

You say yes. We are farm animals, not people. We deserve to have French tourists point at us and laugh. We deserve early death. And you represent the majority view. So of course, it is right, and we are wrong. I have seen the light at last. Thank you so much for setting me straight!

There's just one little problem here. My boyfriend. He loves me the way I am, which is obviously wrong, wrong, wrong. Will you straighten him out for me please, and get him to hate me as much as you think he should? I'd hate to harm my fellow man by wallowing in too much undeserved unconditional loving.

Anonymous said...

anon at 2:30pm - ... That we don't deserve love, don't deserve respect, don't deserve even basic kindness simply because WE EAT TOO MUCH AND DON'T EXERCISE ENOUGH.

Ummm.. no... we are saying that you are fat because you eat too much and don't exercise enough. That's kind of the whole discussion? Particularly in response to the previous posts from people who believe that they will stay the same weight even if they just have a crusty piece of bread once a day and run marathons every weekend.

And if a guy wants to date a thin crackhead or child molester instead of you, isn't that his choice? Why is it a matter of something you "deserve" or don't?

Anonymous said...

The whole point of this discussion wasn't supposed to be about the reasons for people being fat. It simply got hijacked by people who wanted to make it about that.

The point of the discussion, in fact, was that the majority of the men surveyed were making it their "choice" to avoid us like we were foul objects. When the majority of men have turned their backs on you solely because of a physical characteristic and what they believe that physical characteristic represents, it ceases to be about individual "choice" and instead becomes about social prejudice and yes, hatred.

So you bet your Gitanes-addled bottom it's about what we "deserve," if large numbers of us aren't getting something we passionately want to have and the reasons given have largely to do with men's belief in our lack of worthiness of love. My "sisters" deserve to have men in their lives as loving and compassionate as my boyfriend; instead, they are confronted at every turn with men who believe what the men cited above believe, that we are not lovable. And if god forbid something happened to my boyfriend I too would have to negotiate those same choppy waters once again.

And please spare me the "health" argument as a justification for this hate. I'm sure that if the same question were posited to CL readers about women who were chain smokers, alcoholics or drug abusers, the replies wouldn't be nearly as vicious.

Buffpuff said...

Man alive, what do I need, like a trepanation drill to get this into your skull?

Not unless you fancy getting really intimate with your trepanation drill, sweetie.

The reason I reiterated the fact that America is not the centre of the known universe was because, despite the fact that several of us posting on this thread have said we're doing so from elsewhere, it often seems that the conversation is predominantly US-centric. And, since much of what has been said here - in defense and in criticism - of fat people, is actually pretty universal...I felt it needed saying, (again).

I would also add that where bigotry, prejudice, projected self-hatred and stereotyping are concerned, its entirely immaterial whether there are more fat people in America and/or more extremes of fat in America – because regardless of where we come from or whether we are fat, obese or even morbidly obese, lipophobes like our cyclist friend, Kiss My Formerly Fat Ass, et al treat us with exactly the same degree of derision. It makes no difference how we became fat, why we remain so or how many of us there are: there is NO justification for sizism.

As for your Guardian link, Anonymous. Thank you for pointing out something that I'm already very well aware of – though you may not be. Extreme fat-bashing is something akin to a national sport for the British media, preferably using the most derogatory language possible. This feature was no exception, trotting out all the stereotypes with glee: "people there no longer walk, they waddle", "...there may be nowhere at all to match, (the physical size of the shoppers in) Aisle 10 in Piggly Wiggly's, between the Brown Cow ice cream 'swirled with thick, rich chocolate syrup' and the giant packs of bacon and cheddar fries". I happen to know the Southern States well; the journalist could have picked on Kroger or Winn Dixie or any other innocuously named supermarket chain, but he couldn't resist the allure of the greedy pig analogy, could he? Indeed so desperate is he to cover all clichéd bases, he even contradicts himself in the effort - one minute claiming that poverty (along with academic underachievement, predictably enough), is relevant to the "obesity epidemic", the next, opining that prosperity is to blame. Given that the left-wing British press, as typified by the Guardian, is none too keen on America and the word fat is considered an insult by many in western society, you'll forgive me if I fail to see anything in this article likely to shake up my personal politics.

Diets are just lessons on how not to binge eat, right?

Wrong, genius. Diets, (as has been stated several times to apparently deaf ears by many, many ex-dieters on this thread), are how a significant proportion of the fat population screwed up their metabolisms and ended up fatter than they might otherwise have been.

Diets are lessons in denial. Diets are about punishing yourself - and being seen to punish yourself – for what you look like. Diets make you crave foods you might otherwise not even have thought about eating, if you weren't on one to begin with, because diets are also incredibly monotonous. Diets encourage eating disorders on a massive scale. Diets encourage self-hatred and compound feelings of failure. Diets come in many varieties - from relatively sensible to the downright crankish - but the one thing they all have in common is that they do not work in the long term for the vast majority of dieters – and repeated dieting has a worse effect on overall health than maintaining a steady (albeit heavier) weight.

My fat is not a lifestyle choice. It just happens to be the way a variety of factors have made me. My choosing to channel the energy I once put into dieting and self-hatred into self-acceptance is a lifestyle choice – one that, unlike dieting, has enhanced the quality of my life, boosted my self-esteem and proved to be of long-term value.

And now, time to blow this pop stand. I'm done.

Anonymous said...

What a bunch of uninformed idiots responded to this post. I was faithfully following Marilu Henner's Total Health Makeover for a year. I was mostly vegan. Every morsel of food I put in my body had to be healthy, lowfat, and preferably organic. I mostly ate raw veggies and fruits and some soy. I exercised for at least 40 minutes every day. EVERY DAY. I am 5'7". I weighed 190 pounds the whole time I was doing this. I was not overeating. I had bloodwork done. Everything was working just fine. I am a fat girl. I am meant to be fat and I always will be fat. I have stopped fighting a losing battle with my own body. I was in pain the whole time I was doing this and later found out I had fibromyalgia. Despite the fact that I've gained another 40 pounds, men still look at me and it's not in disgust either. Everybody has their own tastes and desires. Some are just more shallow than others. I love me, and that's all that matters. I am a good person. I love my family and treat them well. I volunteer with the Humane Society when I can. I am smart and hard-working, despite the fact that I am in pain ALL the time. I now eat 3 regular meals a day, probably less than most of you, yet I'm still fat. Who cares? My blood pressure runs 90/60 and my pulse averages 65. My cholesterol was 156 last time it was checked. So, what's the problem?

Esther said...

Why are we still having this discussion? Why does anyone else care that we are fat? Does it effect them at all? Oh wait, I'm sorry. We must all be such a terrible eyesore, obstructing of view all the self designated beautiful people. Hahaha.
Note: Just because you are thin, that doesn't make you pretty or intelligent. Just thought you should know. ; )
^_^
Esther

PS- Who cares what the Frence think.

Anonymous said...

Me--france chick


Well y'all. I'm done here too. I have overweight friends I love, guys and girls. I have an overweight sister I am closer to than anyone else in the world. She is actually the only one who seems to even care about being fat. The others would never spend time whining on here. They are fat and don't care and it doesn't even matter..they have been like that their whole lives and I do think at least with my guy friend, it is genetic. His dad is from Hawaii and just as big. They are big but not fat. Not obese.

As for my sister, she is a petite woman who comes from a long line of small women. Her weight is all fat. A natural size 4 weighing 160 pounds is not healthy.

I'm not a bad person either. I'm sick of you thinking I'm judgemental just for making observations that are pretty true.

Eat all you want as long as you are happy. Truthfully though, not many of you sound very happy at all. Just remember--I don't diet either. I don't deny myself ANYTHING. If I want chocolate I eat chocolate--one bar or a couple pieces. I eat whatever the hell I want all the time. But what I want is normal. I don't want to eat TONS of food ever. I don't like feeling bloated and heavy and sick with overeating. Two pieces of pizza and I'm full. When you eat 6 that means you're eating 3 times as much as me.

I don't know, whatever. I will continue to love my sister and try my best to support her out of her eating disorder. We just joined a tennis club so hopefully that will help. Then maybe next time the family goes camping she won't have to stay behind when we go on a hike.

Once again, fat people deserve love and respect as humans. But they won't get respect as humans who take care and pride in their bodies, because they don't. I find it attractive physically when people work out and want to look good. Some of these people are assholes of course, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they LOOK PHYSICALLY GOOD.

And I think for many of the men (even though most are retarded) who answered the add the same thing is true:
Looking good and being healthy and happy and having energy go hand in hand. There is a lightness and physical/mental well being when you see someone who is fit. This is what your average joe sees and desires.

the end

Kari said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

For the person on the vegan diet who didn't lose a pound..no. If there is nothing wrong with you physically you will lose weight on a near starvation diet. Everyone does. It's a fact.of.life.

There were no fat people in nazi death camps. There are no fat starving people in africa.

Anonymous said...

anon at 3:11pm said: "For the person on the vegan diet who didn't lose a pound..no. If there is nothing wrong with you physically you will lose weight on a near starvation diet."

Give it up dude. Some people here are in such denial they don't believe in physics anymore. What's more likely:

a) This person has found a way to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics.
b) They're lying through their teeth to try to argue a position that's already lost.

btw, vegans have a 3% obesity rate, kind of low compared to the general population.. but as we all know.. diet makes absolutely no difference..

Anonymous said...

anon, I have been a vegan for 10+ years and it is not "near starvation". you still have to be careful what you eat - if you eat just french fries and Coke, it's still technically vegan.

given that, not too many fat vegans. Meat-eaters tend to be much heavier that us.

Anonymous said...

Three percent and zero percent are not the same thing. Obviously, then, there have to be fat vegans out there, and you do not need to dismiss someone who claims to be a fat vegan as a liar. She is probably telling the truth.

No fat people in Nazi death camps? OK, now I think I have an idea of the kind of treatment you favor for us -- no food, no water, and hours of backbreaking labor until we shrivel up and die. It's frightening how many people actually seem to think this would be a good idea.

And as for the anon who said, "Truthfully, not many of you sound very happy," well, guess what? Fat people's unhappiness doesn't have to do with their being fat in and of itself, it has to do with their being rejected and prejudged for being fat. By people like you, in fact, who maintain the attitude, "I'm thin and you're not, therefore I know more about you than you do about yourself." If there were a thin pill that really worked and wouldn't harm me, would I take it? Yes, in a hot second -- and as soon as I got thin, I'd tell people what it was really like to be fat and I'd have a snowball's chance in Maui of actually being believed, because thinness automatically equals credibility in this society and fatness equals presumed prevarication. That's a hell of a burden to have to drag around with you -- a much heavier burden than 49-inch hips, I'll tell you that.

Oh well, probably I needn't bother. You're probably already off to the pagan boards to lecture people on why they'd be so much better off if they became Christian.

Anonymous said...

anon said: She is probably telling the truth.

Yeah, let me have a shot at it too..

You know, between 1990 and 2006 all I ate was a SINGLE crust of bread!! I ran 27 marathons in that time, but I still weigh 400lbs!! Damn, I think God WANTED me to be fat!!

Score so far --> 2nd law of thermodynamics: 4, you: 0

Anonymous said...

fellow fatties, why are you feeding the trolls?

you don't have to be a "good fatty" or a "bad fatty", we have to stik together. if i like buffets and don't want to exercise, why should i not have the same rights as you?

littlem said...

Antipath:

Please clone yourself.

Otherwise, it is a distinct possibility that Buffpuff and I could end up fighting over your male siblings (assuming that they share your generous and insightful worldviews).

Thank you.

With respect and admiration,
littlem

Anonymous said...

"Oh well, probably I needn't bother. You're probably already off to the pagan boards to lecture people on why they'd be so much better off if they became Christian."



YEAH. I made the comment about the nazi death camps to show you that when ALL people eat VERY little they GET THIN. The point that so many of you don't seem to understand.

Not because I think you should go to some death camp. I'm Jewish myself.

Living in San Francisco I have many, many vegan friends. They are all super thin. If you're a obese vegan that's pretty damn amazing.

I DO know tons of fat vegetarians though. It's the block of cheese dumped in the veggie chili issue.

Anonymous said...

Omega-3:

How can you fat women be angry with men for not wanting to date you. If a man is disgusted by looking at you, and is in no way sexually attracted to you- why would he date you. And then you call these men shallow for saying they are disgusted. They are not bad people for feeling this way. You cannot expect people to be able to control what they find attractive. Yes there are people who will find you attractive, but the % is probably a lot smaller than the amount of people who would find a THIN you MORE attractive. Do not call these men shallow. I have a lot of friends who are girls and are fat…but I would never consider dating these girls. The reason being I am not attracted to them at all. I am in great shape and can expect the same from a girl. If I was “overweight” myself then I would not expect to date a girl that was “in-shape.”

Also, I made my best friend break up with his girlfriend because she was too fat. She was heartbroken and I felt guilty. But he was losing a lot of friends and others were talking very poorly about both him and his girlfriend. I thought I was helping him by telling him to break up with her. That was a terrible thing for me to do.

Oh yeah. They key to weight loss is not dieting- it is exercise.

Deja Pseu said...

Also, I made my best friend break up with his girlfriend because she was too fat. She was heartbroken and I felt guilty. But he was losing a lot of friends and others were talking very poorly about both him and his girlfriend. I thought I was helping him by telling him to break up with her. That was a terrible thing for me to do.

Yes, that was a terrible thing for you to do. But if your friend cared more about appeasing his friends' bigotry than about being with his girlfriend, she's better off without him.

Buffpuff said...

Damn. I thought I could keep away but the temptation proved too great. There's a new horse's arse on the blog and, like acid reflux, I'm back.

I have a lot of friends who are girls and are fat…but I would never consider dating these girls.

For which, in my opinion, they should be offering up thanks to their respective Gods daily.

Tell me, Anonymous, do these fat female friends of yours have any idea you look upon them as second class citizens? Or that you look upon women per se as little more than accessories to make men look good? A thin girl is your God-given entitlement for being "in great shape", while a fat girl would be your booby prize for failing to measure up to the societal ideal. Don't flatter yourself, sunshine. No woman on earth could possibly be that desperate - fat or thin. In fact, all things considered, it's a miracle you've even got any friends, particularly in view of that oh-so-generous 'favour' you did your best mate and his ex.

One only has to look at the large number of men on Craigslist, (anyone remember Craigslist?), seeking extramarital affairs with fat women to see how much of a social stigma it has become to express a sexual preference for a larger body type. I myself have been out with men who told me that, for years, they felt obliged to deny or suppress their attraction to fat women, because of peer pressure and prejudice. Personally, if someone professing to be my best friend attempted to make me break up with the person I loved for no other reason that they didn't find them physically attractive, I'd tell them to go to hell. What you did, Anonymous, was not an act of friendship. It was immature, selfish, cruel and lends a whole new dimension to shallow - as does your post, in point of fact.

By the way, if you'd actually bothered to read any of the previous posts, you'd see that exercise has been discussed ad nauseam. Get with the programme and stop mindlessly fat-bashing.

Anonymous said...

Oh my God! No need to attack me here.

A) I admit that it was very shallow & immature of me to get my friend to break up with this girl because she was heavy. However, I saw how badly people were talking about him behind his back, how much shit he was getting, and how people didn’t want to invite him places because “she” would come. It is a very sad world we live in. Very sad. What was I supposed to do? Stand up and defend him and her in front of everyone? It is not that easy. I wish it were. (And if you can criticize me and say I should be stronger and be able to defend the fat girl…then I should be able to say you guys should be stronger and lose weight)--- The post right below mine said “Yes, that was a terrible thing for you to do. But if your friend cared more about appeasing his friends' bigotry than about being with his girlfriend, she's better off without him.” …..But she still cries and calls him and even me, and it has been a year and a half. So someone needs to tell her she is better off. I DO feel guilty still.

B) “do these fat female friends of yours have any idea you look upon them as second class citizens?” - Hold on now, I do not think of these girls as second rate citizens! They are great people, fun to be around and I am lucky to have their company!!! I am just not attracted to them because they are overweight. Is that a crime? They have asked me on several occasion what is wrong with them (in context of why we never take our friendships to the next level etc…) and I keep quiet because I don’t want to hurt their feelings.

C) I have many friends who find “bigger” girls attractive. But I have about 10 times as many friends who find “thinner” girls attractive. I myself DO think I am entitled to an athletic girl as I am in very good shape myself. And I personally think even “slightly overweight” is unattractive. It may be a disorder on my part, but that is how I am…


D) I did read the previous posts about exercise. I still stick with my opinion that exercise is the key to being in good shape. This will probably piss people off but…I think people are in the exact shape they really want to be in. (Minus a SMALL percentage of the population that have disorders)

And my name is Shawn, so you can refer to me as that instead of Anonymous.

Anonymous said...

Hi this is Shawn again…

I should probably add that I am 23 years old. So my friends and the whole dating scene in general for my age people is shallow. I am not sure how old the rest of you are but I am assuming that many of you are more mature, looking for serious relationships etc. When I am older I will most likely pay a lot more attention to many of the other qualities but let me assure you that most people my age, both males and females are VERY concerned with appearances etc.

Esther said...

Shawn,
I'm 17...I know how shallow people can be.
I know alot of guys that prefer fat chicks but they are afraid to admit it because their friends would put them through so much crap for it.
That is the reason I had to break up with my last boyfriend (he was 19), because he said that he didn't want to introduce me to his friends because they still messed with him about that last girl he dated (who was "plus sized").
Whatever...why would I want to waste my time with someone like that?
^_^
Esther

Anonymous said...

Shawn says…

Esther,

It is good you realize that it was a waste of your time to be with someone like that. At least you are someone who realizes this happens, and knows what you should and should not be around. From my experience, the only guys who do not get some sort of ridicule or harassment for having a fat girlfriend are guys who are fat themselves. So from what I have seen, as long as the girl is smaller than the guy there is usually no ridicule. Whenever she is bigger, the jokes start flying, both in his face and behind his back….Esther is sounds like you know what you want so you will be just fine finding it.

-Shawn

Anonymous said...

Shawn,

I'm indeed a lot older than you and was relieved to discover that you're still in your early 20s – because, frankly, if you’d been in your 30s or 40s and spouting that sexist, sizist drivel, I’d have found it depressing beyond all measure. As it is I’d like to think you’re not entirely beyond redemption.

In answer to your question, (and since you profess to care about these people), yes, I do think you should have found the cojones to stand up for your friend and his ex in the face of shallow peer pressure. (He's your best friend for pity's sake! Surely the love, respect and support of a best friend is unconditional?) However, failing this, there are plenty of other things you could have done. You could, for instance, have suggested to those criticising and/or ridiculing your friend behind his back, that they take the matter up with him themselves, as you didn't wish to be involved. You could have said his relationship made him happy and that’s all that mattered to you. You could – and most definitely should have, in my view – allowed him to fight his own battles and make his own decisions.

Of course you cannot change the physical type(s) you are sexually attracted to. I doubt many people can – nor would I expect them to try, least of all to appease somebody else's politics. But, however much you claim to respect your fat female friends, you clearly don't view them on an equal footing with the kind of girl you feel you "deserve" as a reward for your efforts on the treadmill. If you did, you wouldn’t have found your way onto this blog with the intention of winding up a load of pissed-off fat women you don’t even know. (Let me guess – one of your little pals from the gym tipped you off?) You wouldn’t have been bandying about words like “disgust”. You wouldn’t have been doing your damndest to portray as an immutable truth that athleticism is next to godliness, simply because you know more people who are attracted to thin girls than fat ones. You wouldn’t be accusing anyone of weakness for failing to subscribe to or achieve your ideal of physical perfection. You certainly wouldn’t have used a phrase like “she was too fat” to justify the heartache you caused that unfortunate girl. Too fat for what? To meet with the approval of a bunch of worthless, superficial, morons who don't want to invite her to their social gatherings because of the way she looks? You know, life isn’t a non-stop, glamorous bikini party, Shawn. Life is fucking harsh. And if this is the measure of your chosen fellow travellers, I truly pity you on the road ahead.

Women are not shiny trophies. Fat or thin, they are three-dimensional beings with complex human feelings and frailties, andyou'd do well to remember that. The fact is, if you don’t believe the women on this blog are worthy of your respect, then you don’t, deep down and by extension, respect your fat friends either. If you seriously believe we inhabit a sad world with lousy values and that espousing those values led to you to causing needless heartbreak for which you feel genuine remorse, then be a man and stop perpetuating the problem. You don’t have to date fat girls. But you can start by respecting them and the rights of those who find them attractive. The next time one of your smart-arsed mates makes a cheap jibe about a fat woman, tell him you don’t find it funny - that you have several fat friends and that it hurts you on their behalf. Because, damn it, it should, if you care about them as much as you claim.

Buffpuff said...

Whoops! Sorry - the above post was mine.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I'm a guy with an athletic/muscular body type and I just found this site by procrastinating college schoolwork and going through links on Wikipedia that eventually brought me here.

I'd just like to apologize on behalf of my gender for all the sh*t overweight girls go through in the dating game. This blog really opened up my eyes about obesity and body image and all that, so I'd like to say sorry and that I hope that things change soon. I'm probably guilty of the fat targeting thing too, but from now on I'm gonna think twice about what I say and how I treat people.

Anonymous said...

Shawn says…

Buffpuff, you make great points. And I want to make sure you know I respect everyone on this forum, and know everyone is human and has feelings and all that stuff. I think you are idealistic and unrealistic. People in this lifetime will not see the fat jokes come to an end. And I am guilty of laughing at a few fat jokes and even making them. (Just as I am sure you have laughed at or made a racist joke once in your life- and that does not make you a bad person)

I think it is wrong for all the men and women who are overweight to blind themselves from reality. People who are fat are seen as disgusting pigs who lack self control. That does not mean they are. That is how they are seen. It is because of this that I had my friend break up with his fat girlfriend- because he was the end of all the fat jokes too. I had three options. 1) do nothing and let him become and outcast for dating a fat girl. 2) Try to change the world’s view of fat people. 3) Tell him to break up with her. And being his best friend I did what I could to get him out of a bad situation. Even though it was not the right thing.

And I don’t run on a treadmill. I lift a lot of weights and swim and play sports and stuff with friends……treadmills are boring. It is because of this exercise that I think my life is 10 times better than what it would be if I were overweight.

The reason I post is because I think the worst mentality in the world to have is the NAAFA’s. They say be fat and happy, and tell people to do nothing to improve themselves. They enable people to be fat. They enable people to be unhappy. People are not going to stop making fun of fat people. People are not going to stop discriminating against fat people. People are not going to stop being ashamed of their fat partners. The only thing you all can do is try and improve yourself. I know what you are thinking, what makes me think that “improving” means losing weight…because otherwise it would not bother you if people made fat jokes. I am not bothered when people make meathead or steroid jokes to me. I am actually flattered and want them to keep coming. We as humans should strive to improve ourselves everyday- mentally, physically, and spiritually… otherwise whats the point. Also- you can both love yourself for who you are and want to improve. They are not mutually exclusive.

…And with the same amount of passion that you feel I should have had the cojones to defend the fat girl, I feel you should have the drive to improve your body.

-Shawn

Anonymous said...

Shawn..

I agree with a lot of what you said. But telling your friend to break up with a girl who is "too fat" and him actually listening is pretty stupid. Sounds more like 15 rather than 23.

I don't think of fat people as disgusting pigs or whatever you do, but it does make me sad when people don't even want to try and eat better and exercise.

I don't know ONE overweight person who lost weight and felt worse in any way. I'm sorry dudes, but when you lose weight, you FEEL AND LOOK BETTER. Always. I know what you are saying, diets suck, blah blah blah. I'm talking about cutting down your food and upping your exercise, something that takes years. You don't gain those extra 100 pounds overnight, you don't lose them overnight. Instead of dieting an overweight person can just eat normally, like weight watchers style, and will always lose weight. (Unless you are the 2% with a thyroid condition or something). I don't know why anyone would resist feeling and looking better. Fear I guess. They don't have time? I dunno.

I always question the theory that most guys secretly want fat chicks too. Most guys want girls with some curves, which women have when they weigh 110 or 130 pounds as well. Breasts and soft hips. Soft small belly. Not curves on the backs of the knees and under the chin. In nature these things do not even show a fertile woman. Overweight women have problems even concieving. Maybe there are a few guys who had fat mamas and find some fat girls sexy, but I think most people want a mate with a healthy weight simply because it's good for life. If I loved someone who got seriously overweight I would worry about them and want them to be healthy, just as if they had any other eating disorder like anorexia.

Anonymous said...

Well, I have to agree with Shawn at some level. Your friends' subjective opinions do count for something. If I was dating a gal with horrendous BO that made my friends' eyes water when she came into the room, I would expect one of them to give me a little talk. I would hope my best friend wouldn't think I should be "man enough" to rise above the "bigotry" against hygiene challenged people.

What I found more disturbing is the subtext in Shawn's post that even though he finds the obese distasteful right now, he might be changing his mind later on, presumably when he is older and heavier and can't catch the good ones any more.

Anonymous said...

Shawn said…

Anonymous above… I could not have said it better myself. The B.O. is a great analogy, and if I were put in the same situation again, I would probably do the same thing I did again.

And I was not implying that I may change later because I will be fat and unable to catch the “good ones.” That is not what I meant at all. I was saying people change over time. In high school I would not even consider dating a girl that was not white. I didn’t think that minorities were bad people, I was only attracted to white girls. Over time, after college- I am now very attracted to non-white females. I find them more attractive than white girls. So what I am saying is that maybe in time my taste, and others’ tastes would change.

And I will never be fat by the way. I would never let that happen to myself.

-Shawn

Anonymous said...

Aren't you guys sick and tired of this subject already??????

Anonymous said...

anon said: Aren't you guys sick and tired of this subject already??????

Apparently you are not, or you would not still be reading..

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said "I know what you are saying, diets suck, blah blah blah. I'm talking about cutting down your food and upping your exercise," Well, that's what dieting is, isn't it? "Cutting down your food and upping your excercise," right? The whole "don't diet, just cut calories and excercise more" is probably the most ignorant statement ever uttered. That's what a diet is, and it doesn't work!

Anonymous said...

anon, generally "diet" is used in two meanings - one is as in "cabbage soup diet" and the other as in "typical diet of a South Indian".

The don't diet advice just means make a PERMANENT change to your eating habits. Short term diets don't work.

Buffpuff said...

Okay. This really is my last post. I've wasted way too much of my precious time trying to communicate with bigots, bullies, fitness-obsessives, patronising fools and people with selective hearing. Damn, I need a cigarette and I don't even smoke...(or drink more than a couple of white wine spritzers a month...or do recreational drugs...or leap into bed with total strangers about whose sexual health and history I know nothing. Of course plenty of lissom folk do all of these things on a very regular basis, but I guess that must be okay because they're thin, therefore their bodies are, by definition and appearance, their temples). But I digress.

Anonymous. Only one person – one of the original Craiglist respondents very early on in the thread – has said they thought all men secretly hankered after a fat woman. Of course that’s nonsense. (As is, incidentally, your assertion chubby knees and a couple of extra chins might prevent a woman from conceiving. In actual fact underweight women have more trouble conceiving than overweight ones). What I think is far more pertinent is that others have said that they always knew they found larger women attractive but felt obliged to keep it under wraps because of social stigma. Indeed what happened to Shawn's, (yes, I'll agree, woefully easily led), friend being an excellent case in point.

The way I look at it is this. If everybody, (fat people included), stopped obsessing about this one physical characteristic, ceased trying to turn weight loss/management into a moral issue, desisted from trying to live other people's lives for them and accepted that a wide variety of body types is simply a fact of life, hankering after a fuller figure wouldn't be any more of a social faux pas than fancying a blonde or a black person or, indeed, someone who works out a lot. It most certainly wouldn't be tantamount to a perversion, which is pretty much how it is viewed in the current social climate. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we live in a culture of extreme self-hatred. Self-hatred and the demonisation of fat, makes society fearful, vicious, and ever fatter. Nobody likes to be branded a pervert - any more than they relish being labelled a fetish. Society’s decidedly unhealthy preoccupation with fat makes freaks of people who would otherwise free to express a perfectly valid sexual preference – for them.

Shawn. Ohhhhh, Shawn. I really thought, from the note of contrition in your response to my verbally kicking your arse, that you might not be entirely beyond redemption. I thought it might be possible you might have actually learned something from the tragedy you precipitated. Something that might enable you to act like more of a mensch and less like a sheep if a similar situation ever arose in your life. But, alas, you sorely disappoint me.

Let's start with this: I think it is wrong for all the men and women who are overweight to blind themselves from reality .

Okay, Shawn, and which reality would that be? Our own individual experiences around yo-yo dieting and weight gain? Our own individual - gasp! – healthy diet and exercise regimes? The myriad, complex, varied and repeatedly stated factors which have contributed to our realistic, individual, honest-to-gosh fatness? The measures some of us have taken to improving our individual issues around body image and self-esteem and how they have improved our real lives? No, of course it isn't. It's this reality:-

People who are fat are seen as disgusting pigs who lack self control

Really? Omigod! The scales have fallen from my eyes! I had no idea fat people were perceived in this way! I have never in my life had to deal with that particular prejudice, least of all seen it parroted by every jumped up little health-Nazi who has participated in this thread. I only thought I was perceived as indolent, dull-witted, ugly, slovenly, sexless, nutritionally lacking and/or ignorant and given to outlandish lies about anything pertaining to my own weight.

That does not mean they are. That is how they are seen.

And, unfortunately for your friend's ill-fated romance, you cared more about reinforcing those inane blanket stereotypes than acting like a decent human being. You didn't have to challenge society's views of fat people. All you had to do was stick up for one solitary fat individual, who made your friend happy, in the face of infantile taunts from a handful of trifling gits. If you'll forgive my impudence and psychoanaltytical tendencies, I seriously wonder whether your guilt isn't primarily caused by the fact you were more worried about what people would think of you for being best friends with a "social outcast" if the gang had finally declared him officially beyond the pale. In which case, your allegedly altruistic act effectively gave him the option of choosing between you and his girl. And you say you’d do it all again. Yep. You’re all heart.

Perhaps my alleged idealism regarding the nature of friendship stems from the fact that I have never surrounded myself with the kind of people you describe, let alone considered the validation of same to be worth a damn. My friends are many and varied and some of my friendships go back to when I was way younger than you are now. And you had best believe that no one in my social circle would dream of criticising someone else's partner on the basis of the way they look, much less express shame in their own partner’s appearance.

My comment about cheap jibes at fat people’s expense was not indicative of my political agenda or utopian ideals. It was specifically related to you, the people you claim to love and your option of telling those vacuous friends of yours to stop insulting them once in a while. But for what it's worth, people used to believe that black people's brains were smaller than white folks', that slavery was a corking idea and that women shouldn't have the vote. People have always laughed at those who seek to effect social change yet, sooner or later, those changes come about all the same.

We have profoundly different value systems, Shawn. To me, your interference in your friend’s relationship, the subsequent and continuous unhappiness you say it has caused, to say nothing of your shoddy defense of it, (B.O. analogy? Fatuous much? If only fat and its surrounding prejudice could be erradicated with a shower and a deft stroke of Mitchum), constitutes a moral issue. My choosing to nourish and exercise my own body as I see fit, does not – much less to you. And I would most definitely take issue with your assertion that my making peace with my body indicates weakness of character. Quite the opposite in point of fact.

You of all people should know it takes strength to swim against the tide, both literally and metaphorically. When I was younger and steeped in the self-hating diet mentality, I carried myself like a victim. I whined constantly about how awful it was being fat. I apologised for taking up what little space I did back in those days. (Not that I take up all that much space now but then everything’s relative I suppose). And you know what? People – often total strangers – put me down constantly, and I allowed myself to be diminished as due punishment for failing to be, as I thought of it then, “normal”, for which read “thin”. I allowed myself to believe I was inferior to...ooh, pretty much anyone who wasn’t fat really.

But then I grew up. I discovered another way to be; a healthier way to be, physically, mentally and spiritually. I decided to stop beating myself up and work with what I had. And I’ve learned, though God knows without any help from the likes of you and your sanctimonious, iron-pumping mates, that what I have is enough. I'm stylish, witty, vivacious, articulate, higly creative, very well respected in my professional field, and quite mobile enough for my purposes, thanks. After 20 years of damn hard work – without the aid of organisations like NAAFA – I no longer carry myself like a victim. And, amazingly enough, people don’t fuck with me any more. Because I clearly respect myself. And incidentally I probably weigh 40 pounds more than I did back in the days when I didn’t. So don’t tell me in what direction I should be “driven”. I’ve driven myself further than you can even imagine.

So you keep lapping up the steroid jokes, boyo. One of the greatest compliments I’ve ever received was from a very dear friend who I’ve known ever since I started my journey to self-acceptance. He described me as “wantonly fat”.

Oh - and muscular, athletic, prevaricating, Wikipedia-link-clicking Anonymous? Kudos! You're a gentleman and a scholar. May the road rise up to meet you and the wind be at your back. Consider yourself kissed very thoroughly on the cheek.

Anonymous said...

Buffpuff, I would be the last person to advocate yo-yo dieting. But yo-yo dieting implies that you've failed several times, not that the diets have failed. If you pick a sensible diet, and stick with it, you will lose weight over the long term. No matter how articulate you are, you're not going to dance your way around that point. And please no more "us fat people have heard all this 80 gazillion times before" red herrings, the fact is you still haven't figured out a way to cease being fat.

To be blunt, if you personally have tried to lose weight and failed, shouldn't you defer to the rest of us that have been successful at it? Granted, I was only about 5'11" and 230lbs at my heaviest, which would make me a featherweight at a NAAFA conference. No problem with your approach if you WANT to be fat, but it's disingenuous for you to tell people that because you have failed, everyone will fail.

This is especially relevant to this blog, since the authors (who I very much admire for their brutal honesty) have decided to try using Hoodia as one more quick-fix to stop being fat. If you want to bring your weight down, listen to those of us who have done it successfully and without harmful side effects. If you want to remain fat, listen to the people who have failed and made peace with their failure.

The BO analogy in the Shawn subthread seems about right. Your main objection seems to be that you can correct BO easily. You haven't answered why someone should correct their BO. If they choose not to shower, isn't that as valid a choice as someone choosing not to exercise enough to lose weight?

Shouldn't they be entitled to equal protection and equal rights since their choice doesn't change their personality but just their aesthetic appeal?

To Shawn - give it up: you are in a realm where physics and logic no longer apply. People here have found ways to circumvent the basic laws of thermodynamics. We have gals who were "almost" vegan for a year and exercised every day and didn't lose a single pound. You will not win, or even have your logic heard. You know what? It doesn't matter - this is the Internet, and in the real world you have all the advantages.. the next time you're vying for a job with a 5' 300lb woman, who do you think the lucky winner is going to be?

And back to Buffpuff - last post? I think not. Your verbiage reminds me of the comic book store owner on the Simpsons - and I'm pretty sure you'll be back for the last word..

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